Can rhetoric make better citizens — or does it simply make better manipulators through the art of persuasion? In Part 2 of our Plato vs. the Sophists arc, we follow Plato's argument from the Meno to the Gorgias to answer that question. Scholars including W.K.C. Guthrie, E.R. Dodds, and George Klosko show how Plato dismantles the Sophist theory of civic progress at its root — and in Callicles, reveals what that theory produces when it succeeds.

KEY TOPICS COVERED

- Can virtue be taught? Socrates' examination in the Meno
- The three tests of genuine techne and why rhetoric fails them
- Gorgias, Polus, and Callicles — three defenders of power
- Callicles as the logical endpoint of Sophist education
- What Plato's critique means for civic virtue and human progress

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction to Plato's critique of Sophist education
05:54 Can virtue be taught? Socrates' examination in the Meno
14:40 The three tests of genuine techne in rhetoric
18:55 The portrayal of rhetoric in the Gorgias
22:50 Callicles and the pursuit of power and domination
26:21 Implications for civic virtue and human progress
29:16 Conclusion: What does genuine moral education look like?

FASCINATING HISTORICAL INSIGHTS

- Dodds connects Callicles directly to Nietzsche's will-to-power tradition — and argues the resemblance is not accidental
- The Meno ends ambiguously on virtue: Plato does not simply refute the Sophists but leaves the question of genuine virtue-teaching provocatively open
- Gorgias himself is read by Dodds as essentially honourable, but somewhat ignorant regarding his own discipline
- Polus drops the moral pretence Gorgias maintains, arguing openly that the rhetorician who acquires power is to be envied
- Klosko reads Callicles as taking this notion further: not as a caricature but as the coherent product of Sophist paideia — a man the educational programme produced when it worked

KEY SOURCES

- Plato. Meno, 87c–100b. Primary source.
- Plato. Gorgias, 447a–527e. Primary source.
- Guthrie, W.K.C. A History of Greek Philosophy, Vol. IV. Cambridge University Press, 1975. pp. 241–265, 294–311.
- Dodds, E.R. Plato: Gorgias. Oxford University Press, 1959. Introduction pp. 1–30; Appendix p. 387.
- Klosko, George. The Development of Plato's Political Theory. Oxford University Press, 2006. Ch. IV, pp. 39–54.
- Weiss, Roslyn. Virtue in the Cave: Moral Inquiry in Plato's Meno. Oxford University Press, 2001. Chs. 5–6.
- Kerferd, G.B. Thrasymachus and Protagoras articles. Phronesis, pp. 19–27, 42–45.
- Retz, Tyson. Progress and the Scale of History. Cambridge University Press, 2022.

JOIN THE CONVERSATION

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COMING IN EPISODE 8

We turn to Aristotle — and a fundamentally different theory of human development. Where Plato forecloses the Sophist vision of civic progress, Aristotle rebuilds it on new foundations: telos, potentiality, and a progress that is directional but finite.

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