Interview with Matt Ehret Pt. 2: The Allegory of the Cave

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he never gives you answers so

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people get confused in our literal sort of culture

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where we see conclusions and we're like oh see Plato is

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is coming to a fascist

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conclusion here a eugenical

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conclusion here and what he's clearly demonstrating is

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how we come to bad conclusions

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by not examining our core assumptions

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upon which we build arguments or analyses

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and if you always have to be careful to not allow

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unexamined core assumptions into your constructions of

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whatever you're trying to make sense of in this case

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how to build a just world or a just economy

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hi welcome back to notions of progress

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in the previous episode 11 Matt Aaron described

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what he sees

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as the foundation of the platonic tradition

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the idea that real learning is not filling a vessel

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but awakening a flame the academy was built to produce

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minds capable of genuine discovery and discovery in

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Ehret's reading is the engine of genuine

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human progress

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today we pick up with the movement Plato was directly

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arguing against the sophists

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teachers who claimed for a fee

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to be able to sell virtue as an actual skill

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we then turn to the passage that Ehret argues

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has been deliberately

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misread for two and a half thousand years

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the allegory of the cave

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is one of the most cited texts in western philosophy

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and according to Ehret it is often mischaracterized

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and it's mischaracterized by two very different groups

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for two very different purposes

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both of which omitted the critical part that changes

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everything

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sources

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reading and today's transcript could be found at

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notions of progress dot com so sit back and please

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enjoy

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part 2 of this enlightening conversation with Matt

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Ehret

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hey Matt before you move on to the allegory

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I just want to ask you one question

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about back to the Meno for a second um

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some interpretations there have been historically

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that the Meno in a sense was Plato's

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response to the sophists

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movement about whether virtual virtue could be taught

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or it can't be taught and I was just curious

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you know in this model that you put together

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do you think that Plato made a conclusion

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based on that just that one was that I do first of all

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do you

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see that as part of the lesson he was trying to teach

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and absolutely I do yeah I it was it was definitely

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an intervention on the softest movement and

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ironically yes it could be taught

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but not in the way that the sophists were teaching it

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it it couldn't be taught

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in that way you couldn't put it into a

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a student but you know

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so do you mind giving the gist

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again for the audience who's not familiar

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cause this office actually

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as a term has has been resurrected

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in very very recently

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actually so it's it's now coming back into some

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which is which is

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just in and of itself an interesting uh

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you know occurrence so would

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would you just give me like a very

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very brief like one or two sentences on

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on who the sophists

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were and what they stood for and what in essence

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Plato was responding to vis a vis the sophists

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yeah well I mean

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sophistry itself is the art of making the false appear

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true or to win an argument it it you know

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the art of winning arguments

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or the art of persuasion which I mean rhetoric

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becomes a branch of sophistry in that sense

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though you could have good rhetoric

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too that's not tied to sophistry

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that's tied to real philosophy of course like rhetoric is just a tool

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as a way of communicating

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in a way that is persuasive

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which could be a good or a bad thing but when sophistry

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which basically is a

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you know was was the effect of this movement

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that appeared on the scene um

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a little bit before the Peloponnesian War in Greece

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where all of a sudden an array

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of personalities of gurus

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you know you can really think of those gurus

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they started just showing up in in odd places all over

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uh Greece and especially in Athens

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professing for money to teach uh young um

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career oriented types from the noble families mostly uh

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how to uh

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make friends and influence people pretty much and um

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and to qualify themselves to go into law

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to go into politics to go into military affairs

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by you know cause Athens was a democracy

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so as a democracy is one of the earliest democracies

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um the the

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for the first time the power was with the people

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um not so in the case of

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tyrannies and other things before that so with the power

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being of the people all of a sudden the power of influencing

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the people became very

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very high value and people started getting brainwashed

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by these gurus these softest teachers um

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who began helping students advance career wise

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but without any actual love of wisdom so Sophia

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means wisdom

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the softest is those who proclaim to know and teach

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wisdom but they don't love it so the true philosopher

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entomologically

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speaking is the the Philo the lover of the Sophia the

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the lover of the wisdom so you the love

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the the process is way more important which is why

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Plato said you'd want to be

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a true philosopher instead of a a sophist any day um

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and uh and so yeah like for a price

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they would tell you what virtue

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was and they tell you how to

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spin it how to use it in a in a in a in a speech

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and you know how to sing its praises

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and and win friends again and influence

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people and hurt your enemies

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along the way which you everybody should want to do

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um and some of the personalities

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who are major influencers

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in this movement included gorgeous

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who was a major figure behind

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you know the decisions that were made unfortunately

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like Alcibiades was a a a student of Gorgias

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and also somebody who who

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Socrates tried to influence but failed

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who played a big role in in uh in sabotaging

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peace efforts during

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the Peloponnesian War that could have

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resulted in Greece

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uh coming out on top victorious against uh

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its enemies and ending

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or at least the very least ending the war

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like 20 or 15 years before it actually ended

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didn't work cause Alcibiades

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following the advice of Gorgias

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the teacher of the sophists

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and the name of one of the personality in the famous

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Gorgias dialogue by Plato

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was encouraging Alcibiades onto go and take

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take Syracuse militarily which was insane

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and uh destroyed like most of the the uh the the Greek

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the the Athenian army

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along the way unnecessarily it was a

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totally destructive act

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um and so the these sophists were there

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there was protagoras

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there was there was so many of these sophists

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and so all of the personalities in

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Plato's dialogues are actually real people

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doing really destructive things in the real world that he was living in and that his

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his teacher Socrates had been living in

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and resisting and fighting in the real

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practical world so they weren't just

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philosophers in the clouds you know

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uh fancifully thinking about abstractions as is often

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uh told negatively about them

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that these were practical men

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in the practical world trying to create world

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situations of of of basically justice but also attacks

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they were working to to to fight back against the the

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mystery cultists of the of the temple of Delphi

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and and of the the the oracles

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of Apollo Delphi and and as well as the oracles of

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Marduk that were managing

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the Persian Empire at those at those times

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so they were practically setting up strategy

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building alliances with with generals

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in in Egypt and generals in

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in Italy and and other places and at different moments

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you know so

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it's for it's so interesting to see how that's done

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yeah absolutely it's amazing yeah

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and you had mentioned the cave and

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and the reason I wanted to stop you and just kind of

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scaffold the cave is because

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let let's say if we talked about the lessons of virtue

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that were that were discussed in the Meno

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there's some other lessons

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that were Learned or at least that were being

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discussed by Plato inside of the allegory of the cave

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so if

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since you brought that up Matt if you wouldn't mind just kind of queuing up

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hey just

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just for those who are not as familiar

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with the you know

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you don't have to tell the entire story but just the basics

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of what they did and what was the primary lesson

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that that uh

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Plato was trying to convey in that particular allegory

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yeah it's a beautiful one and it's it's

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the the Republic is is so full of these beautiful

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little

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universal lessons and that's one of them in book seven

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um people get a little bit troubled by the Republic

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because of some of the conclusions

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that the characters come to

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about the way to organize the ideal society

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which is the whole thing is an intellectual exercise

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in an

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an exploration in understanding what might justice be

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um using negative examples

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and that's all Plato does whenever he posits

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a a positive principle is he's he's typically

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showcasing negative examples not positive

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ones in the sense of show he never gives you answers so

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people get confused in our literal sort of culture

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where we see conclusions and we're like oh see Plato is

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is coming to a fascist

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conclusion here a eugenical conclusion here thus

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he must that that must literally be what he he

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he believes it's like no that

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that that runs contrary to his entire method

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and what he's clearly demonstrating is

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how we come to bad conclusions

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by not examining our core assumptions

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upon which we build arguments or analyses

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and if you always have to be careful to not allow

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unexamined core assumptions into your constructions of

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whatever you're trying to make sense of in this case

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how to build a just world or just economy

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um which he never you know he plants certain traps

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for the for the the naive student you know um

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like he doesn't differentiate

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he allows one of his characters Glaucus

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who was truly an an actual cousin of Plato

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to make the error of not differentiating

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the qualitative

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difference between guard dogs and animals

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that we can breed

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to make better guard dogs from human beings

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who should be the guardians of our society

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he just doesn't differentiate them which is super uncharacteristic of any platonic

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dialogue when something that like that emerge

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um it's always examined it's never allowed to just

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give it a pass but Socrates gives it a total pass

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he's like yes clearly that's the same thing

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um or Glaucon when when Socrates

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floats it up floats the the axiom

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glockon just gives it a total pass

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it's like yes of course we can agree

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training our our humans is like training our dogs

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or guard you know and okay so let's let's see what

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what let's proceed Onward and see what else

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will be the consequence of that you know

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and you're like oh before you know it you're throwing

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babies off a cliff uh haha who are born you know haha

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it's insane Matt but

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but going back to the cave for a second because yeah

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I just want to just double back on something you said previously

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he's you know if Plato has been misinterpreted

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and his and his his work has been taken out of context

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00:10:21,966 --> 00:10:24,266
this is one of the sources that people often point to

268
00:10:24,266 --> 00:10:26,766
to take to take it out of context in your point

269
00:10:26,766 --> 00:10:27,333
and I just

270
00:10:27,333 --> 00:10:29,066
think it would be really helpful if you can explain

271
00:10:29,066 --> 00:10:31,166
to people just a little bit about kind of

272
00:10:31,166 --> 00:10:32,466
just a few basic facts

273
00:10:32,466 --> 00:10:34,233
and what you think Plato was saying

274
00:10:34,233 --> 00:10:36,266
and then stealman the argument Matt if you don't mind

275
00:10:36,266 --> 00:10:38,400
yeah just in terms of like what what where people

276
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,266
are actually taking this off the off the rails

277
00:10:40,266 --> 00:10:42,233
cause it's so important absolutely yeah can you

278
00:10:42,233 --> 00:10:42,933
share that perspective

279
00:10:42,933 --> 00:10:44,933
so I I want that that background

280
00:10:44,933 --> 00:10:47,333
just as we go into the specifics now of the of book

281
00:10:47,333 --> 00:10:49,333
seven and the and the and the cave allegory

282
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,800
is that um it's very famous um

283
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,433
often people will read it with none of the context of the rest of the

284
00:10:54,433 --> 00:10:57,900
the book number two uh it's often misused

285
00:10:57,933 --> 00:11:01,100
so and I'll say why it's misused in in a second here um

286
00:11:01,166 --> 00:11:03,333
number those who may not know

287
00:11:03,333 --> 00:11:06,166
uh the basic scenario is set up where to

288
00:11:06,166 --> 00:11:08,900
give an an example of the of the uh

289
00:11:09,466 --> 00:11:12,000
different phases the different quality of phases

290
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,233
of knowledge that exist he describes now a scenario

291
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:16,933
um a poetic scenario an

292
00:11:16,966 --> 00:11:18,966
allegorical scenario of people who have

293
00:11:18,966 --> 00:11:20,633
lived out their lives born into a cave

294
00:11:20,633 --> 00:11:23,200
trapped with their faces always looking at this miss

295
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:24,633
deformed cave wall

296
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,166
and behind them he sets up a a scenario where

297
00:11:28,166 --> 00:11:31,066
you know he he pauses a flame of a fire

298
00:11:31,066 --> 00:11:32,466
that had been set that causes

299
00:11:32,466 --> 00:11:35,666
light to be cast and shadows to be cast on that wall

300
00:11:35,833 --> 00:11:39,133
and controlling puppets as well as making sounds

301
00:11:39,166 --> 00:11:40,333
associated with those puppets

302
00:11:40,333 --> 00:11:42,500
that are imprinted as as shadows on the wall

303
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,033
are certain uh

304
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,066
puppet masters shadow masters who remain invisible

305
00:11:48,066 --> 00:11:50,833
but then control the visible imprints of what people

306
00:11:50,833 --> 00:11:54,333
have been taught to give labels to and to and to and to

307
00:11:54,633 --> 00:11:56,166
uh shape their identities

308
00:11:56,166 --> 00:11:59,366
around of what they thought all of reality was they couldn't conceive of a sun

309
00:11:59,366 --> 00:12:02,433
or a tree they could only see the maybe a wooden

310
00:12:02,433 --> 00:12:05,500
imprint of of a picture of a tree cast as a shadow

311
00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:07,733
so several degrees of separation between the

312
00:12:07,733 --> 00:12:09,233
the reality that is a tree

313
00:12:09,433 --> 00:12:11,733
and the the shadow that they're seeing in the cave

314
00:12:11,733 --> 00:12:13,533
wall of the image of the tree

315
00:12:13,533 --> 00:12:16,233
you know not even the tree itself cast as a as a shadow

316
00:12:16,733 --> 00:12:18,166
um that that people

317
00:12:18,166 --> 00:12:19,933
become hyper adapted to because they've been living

318
00:12:19,933 --> 00:12:20,533
for so long

319
00:12:20,533 --> 00:12:22,933
with knowing nothing but that now he says let's say

320
00:12:22,933 --> 00:12:25,666
one of these characters finds themselves

321
00:12:26,133 --> 00:12:28,233
a broken out of their their shackles

322
00:12:28,566 --> 00:12:30,566
and all of a sudden free to move

323
00:12:30,566 --> 00:12:33,766
and sees a certain light at the end of a tunnel and

324
00:12:33,766 --> 00:12:34,833
slowly climbs

325
00:12:34,833 --> 00:12:37,500
out pursues the light and climbs out of the cave

326
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,866
to find themselves outside

327
00:12:39,966 --> 00:12:41,533
for the first time in their lives

328
00:12:42,233 --> 00:12:43,800
um with their eyes very in pain

329
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,600
because of the brightness of the sun that they've never been accustomed to and

330
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,566
he's like what would it what would that person he's

331
00:12:48,566 --> 00:12:50,033
asks Glaucon or maybe it's

332
00:12:50,033 --> 00:12:52,466
Glaucon's friend what would that person be feeling

333
00:12:52,666 --> 00:12:54,000
at this moment he's like well of course

334
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,233
they probably want us

335
00:12:55,233 --> 00:12:57,133
return back into their comfort zone they wouldn't

336
00:12:57,833 --> 00:13:00,033
the pain of it all might make and the fear

337
00:13:00,666 --> 00:13:02,333
of the unknown that they're first experiencing

338
00:13:02,333 --> 00:13:03,866
might make them want to go back into their

339
00:13:03,866 --> 00:13:05,366
their comfort blanket in the cave

340
00:13:05,566 --> 00:13:06,466
he's like yeah but the true

341
00:13:06,466 --> 00:13:07,533
philosopher if he's true will

342
00:13:07,533 --> 00:13:08,633
will overcome those fears

343
00:13:08,633 --> 00:13:10,000
and and slowly learn how to

344
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,333
adjust his eyes to begin to look maybe first at the

345
00:13:12,333 --> 00:13:12,966
at the grass

346
00:13:12,966 --> 00:13:14,866
and then maybe at the tree and then maybe at the

347
00:13:14,933 --> 00:13:16,866
the reflection of the sun inside of the

348
00:13:17,466 --> 00:13:19,300
inside of the water or something

349
00:13:19,633 --> 00:13:21,433
and then begin to appreciate the light of

350
00:13:21,433 --> 00:13:24,233
of of truth itself from the sun

351
00:13:24,433 --> 00:13:27,900
which is an allegory for truth in the capital t

352
00:13:28,066 --> 00:13:30,633
versus the imprints or shadows of truth

353
00:13:30,933 --> 00:13:32,033
which are just opinions

354
00:13:32,033 --> 00:13:35,233
you know that are differentiated from real truth um

355
00:13:35,766 --> 00:13:37,400
but here's where things go or rhyme

356
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,433
this is where the scandal begins to emerge

357
00:13:39,433 --> 00:13:42,366
because those who will call themselves Neoplatonists

358
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,466
today the the ruling class will use and extract

359
00:13:45,466 --> 00:13:47,733
some of those that imagery that they like

360
00:13:47,966 --> 00:13:49,566
because they're like yeah that's that's the way

361
00:13:49,566 --> 00:13:52,200
that's the way I wanna run my that's the way that I need to run the world

362
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,433
is by controlling people's shadows and

363
00:13:54,433 --> 00:13:58,566
stories and myths that I and my class of masters

364
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,966
will always be responsible for managing

365
00:14:02,166 --> 00:14:03,366
the governing myths

366
00:14:03,466 --> 00:14:06,233
and creating maybe new sacred myths to control

367
00:14:06,233 --> 00:14:08,833
the shadows of the masses in their superstitious ways

368
00:14:08,966 --> 00:14:11,400
and maybe that I can control the standard theories

369
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,433
that are acceptable to be encouraged or allowed

370
00:14:13,433 --> 00:14:15,233
into academia and other things

371
00:14:15,366 --> 00:14:16,400
and that will be reserved

372
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,500
for that higher priest class and they'll enjoy

373
00:14:18,733 --> 00:14:20,466
Plato's cave and call themselves Platonists

374
00:14:20,466 --> 00:14:22,366
like John Ruskin and others will call themselves

375
00:14:22,366 --> 00:14:23,066
Platonists

376
00:14:23,066 --> 00:14:24,933
because they like that now what they don't like

377
00:14:25,366 --> 00:14:27,733
is where Plato says or has Socrates

378
00:14:27,733 --> 00:14:28,833
say well to be a true

379
00:14:28,833 --> 00:14:30,700
philosopher is not to be satisfied

380
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,000
knowing truth while your fellow man is is

381
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,466
still trapped behind as you once were

382
00:14:35,666 --> 00:14:37,533
believing in the illusions of of their

383
00:14:37,533 --> 00:14:41,533
of their senses no no no it's to go back into the cave

384
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,066
even at the expense

385
00:14:43,066 --> 00:14:45,533
of your security of your life'cause they'll probably

386
00:14:45,533 --> 00:14:48,466
want to hurt you and kill you if you are now all of a sudden

387
00:14:48,466 --> 00:14:51,866
coming in explaining to them why their beliefs

388
00:14:51,966 --> 00:14:54,733
that they've built reputations around are wrong

389
00:14:54,866 --> 00:14:56,600
and are based on a on a ephemeral

390
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,066
reality that has no value

391
00:14:58,333 --> 00:15:01,300
um they will hate you for it and you have to be now

392
00:15:01,966 --> 00:15:06,166
accept the possibility of that type of of slander

393
00:15:06,166 --> 00:15:06,866
of hate

394
00:15:06,866 --> 00:15:10,633
of the mob will begin to hate you they might turn on you they might kill you

395
00:15:10,666 --> 00:15:12,800
as Socrates discovered

396
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,033
you know in his own life in three ninety nine BC

397
00:15:15,133 --> 00:15:18,366
when he was condemned to death by the demos the

398
00:15:18,533 --> 00:15:20,633
you know democratically voted to basically

399
00:15:20,633 --> 00:15:21,566
drink the poison

400
00:15:22,166 --> 00:15:24,733
because his political enemies were

401
00:15:24,733 --> 00:15:26,600
found him too troublesome and were able to use

402
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,466
rhetoric and sophistry to organize the masses

403
00:15:29,566 --> 00:15:30,266
slanderously

404
00:15:30,266 --> 00:15:32,533
to believe things that were false about Plato

405
00:15:32,533 --> 00:15:33,666
Socrates being

406
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,833
a demonic evil doer corrupting the minds of the youth

407
00:15:36,933 --> 00:15:40,033
and he actually did die by by virtue of this and so

408
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,466
that's the part that the oligarchists

409
00:15:42,466 --> 00:15:44,366
always despise they wanna pretend it

410
00:15:44,366 --> 00:15:47,333
it wasn't said by Plato to go back into the cave

411
00:15:47,333 --> 00:15:49,400
out of love of your fellow man

412
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,600
out of the knowledge even of the risk of your own flesh

413
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:53,733
but at the health

414
00:15:53,733 --> 00:15:55,800
for the sake of the health of your soul and your conscience

415
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,266
you do it so in the Plato Plato's world everything

416
00:15:58,266 --> 00:16:00,933
is about learning how to develop a relationship

417
00:16:01,133 --> 00:16:03,966
with the part of you that is immortal divine

418
00:16:04,033 --> 00:16:07,033
eternal that that that immortal soul that we can

419
00:16:07,033 --> 00:16:09,666
increasingly learn to identify with that transcends

420
00:16:09,666 --> 00:16:11,766
the ego part of our our being

421
00:16:11,866 --> 00:16:14,133
that perceives our sense of self as being

422
00:16:14,133 --> 00:16:17,066
the the persona we the the fame

423
00:16:17,066 --> 00:16:18,666
we project the money we accrue

424
00:16:18,666 --> 00:16:20,066
the admiration we get from others

425
00:16:20,066 --> 00:16:22,200
the benefits we we can get from

426
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,933
rewarding our friends and influencing our enemies badly

427
00:16:25,066 --> 00:16:28,633
um the the the sexual or other types of of hedonistic

428
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,333
vice vices that we can feed to give ourselves

429
00:16:31,333 --> 00:16:33,366
physical pleasure those types of identities

430
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,166
are make our souls sick

431
00:16:35,733 --> 00:16:37,866
but we don't know it if we don't discover that we have a soul

432
00:16:37,866 --> 00:16:38,733
or know how to begin to

433
00:16:38,733 --> 00:16:40,333
develop a relationship or make it better

434
00:16:40,333 --> 00:16:42,433
and so without that standard

435
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:47,866
uh a woken with us we are a a number one in Plato's

436
00:16:47,866 --> 00:16:50,133
cosmology and I think he proves it quite well we

437
00:16:50,133 --> 00:16:52,033
we don't actually have free will

438
00:16:52,066 --> 00:16:53,033
as he proves that nobody

439
00:16:53,033 --> 00:16:55,433
wills to do evil in the Gorgias dialogue and

440
00:16:55,433 --> 00:16:57,833
and you know in his discussions with Callicles or in

441
00:16:57,966 --> 00:16:58,800
with for Simacus

442
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,133
in in the first book Book 1 of the Republic

443
00:17:01,533 --> 00:17:02,866
um he's like no nobody

444
00:17:02,866 --> 00:17:05,266
would nobody can possibly have free will

445
00:17:05,266 --> 00:17:09,266
and at the same time engage in evil you can't will evil

446
00:17:09,466 --> 00:17:11,066
um not freely yeah you

447
00:17:11,066 --> 00:17:12,833
you can do it you can do it willfully

448
00:17:12,833 --> 00:17:14,000
but you can't then

449
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,833
also claim to have free will because your soul

450
00:17:15,833 --> 00:17:17,933
is the source of your freedom and

451
00:17:18,033 --> 00:17:19,900
that if you do things that hurt your soul

452
00:17:19,966 --> 00:17:21,833
even though it's making your your body

453
00:17:21,833 --> 00:17:23,433
seem maybe more uh

454
00:17:24,133 --> 00:17:24,933
in

455
00:17:26,066 --> 00:17:27,333
enjoying of pleasure

456
00:17:27,333 --> 00:17:29,566
sexual or food or whatever or you know

457
00:17:29,566 --> 00:17:31,833
or your ego is being increased

458
00:17:31,866 --> 00:17:34,733
at as a sense of self self love but without

459
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,666
a sense of having earned it by doing something

460
00:17:36,666 --> 00:17:38,466
truly good but actually you're

461
00:17:38,466 --> 00:17:40,433
doing something bad then your soul is hurting and your

462
00:17:40,433 --> 00:17:43,233
nobody would willfully hurt their soul so

463
00:17:43,233 --> 00:17:45,433
you know he plays with that in a number of dialogues

464
00:17:45,433 --> 00:17:47,566
and people again find that very difficult

465
00:17:47,566 --> 00:17:49,433
because they themselves have never made discoveries

466
00:17:49,433 --> 00:17:51,533
and to the degree that we don't make discoveries

467
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:52,400
because we maybe are

468
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,966
given an artificial school system that that encourages

469
00:17:54,966 --> 00:17:57,200
memorizing it encourages getting

470
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,933
the right answers to things but not actually awakening

471
00:18:00,433 --> 00:18:05,433
um curiosity or discovering things on our own terms um

472
00:18:05,666 --> 00:18:07,833
we don't know how to relate to these words

473
00:18:07,833 --> 00:18:10,766
in these ancient archaic texts and and so it

474
00:18:10,766 --> 00:18:13,066
we we lose touch of what what made

475
00:18:13,733 --> 00:18:15,666
Greece possible what made it a

476
00:18:15,666 --> 00:18:18,600
a bastion of freedom for a period what made it what

477
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:19,866
what shaped universal

478
00:18:19,866 --> 00:18:22,433
history what has the oligarchy been trying to smother

479
00:18:22,433 --> 00:18:23,600
for thousands of years

480
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,233
what we don't we don't get access to any of that

481
00:18:26,333 --> 00:18:27,800
when we when we approach it that way so

482
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,633
that was my answer to the allegory of the cave

483
00:18:29,733 --> 00:18:31,433
so basically what you're saying Matt

484
00:18:31,433 --> 00:18:33,566
is very interesting too is that

485
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,600
he was mischaracterized in this case by

486
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,966
two people two sets of people his detractors and his

487
00:18:39,233 --> 00:18:40,266
supposed acolytes

488
00:18:40,866 --> 00:18:42,266
and at the same time

489
00:18:42,266 --> 00:18:44,366
you people who are presenting themselves as platonic

490
00:18:44,366 --> 00:18:46,066
that you refer to as the Neoplatonic

491
00:18:46,066 --> 00:18:48,533
which is a very well known movement they're actually

492
00:18:48,533 --> 00:18:49,366
also

493
00:18:49,366 --> 00:18:52,166
characterizing what those puppet masters are doing

494
00:18:52,166 --> 00:18:55,133
and saying that's a good thing whereas

495
00:18:55,266 --> 00:18:57,600
you're saying is that they're both mischaracterizing

496
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,533
actually what Plato

497
00:18:58,533 --> 00:19:01,133
was trying to say in the entire and they're leaving off

498
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,566
the the the second part of what he came down

499
00:19:03,566 --> 00:19:05,966
returning into the cave and the importance of

500
00:19:05,966 --> 00:19:06,933
is that is that a fair

501
00:19:06,933 --> 00:19:09,333
characterization of what you said that that's fair

502
00:19:10,666 --> 00:19:13,000
and so you know moving on now

503
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,233
so you know with this world view

504
00:19:15,233 --> 00:19:17,433
or with this with this understanding this is

505
00:19:17,433 --> 00:19:19,766
this is where I think some of the tension comes in

506
00:19:19,766 --> 00:19:20,866
in terms of the

507
00:19:20,866 --> 00:19:22,933
maybe going back to earlier what you talked about

508
00:19:22,933 --> 00:19:23,566
about how Plato

509
00:19:23,566 --> 00:19:25,866
has either been characterized or mischaracterized

510
00:19:26,033 --> 00:19:27,333
throughout history and this this

511
00:19:27,333 --> 00:19:28,766
cause the cave always comes up

512
00:19:28,766 --> 00:19:30,133
that seems like to be one of the

513
00:19:30,233 --> 00:19:32,166
one of the first things that comes up in this uh

514
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,166
in this model

515
00:19:33,733 --> 00:19:36,933
yeah well I you know there there are um

516
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:42,433
Plato like like any great mind has had their

517
00:19:42,633 --> 00:19:46,033
ideas abused and their names misused

518
00:19:46,133 --> 00:19:49,966
long after they died by people who either didn't know

519
00:19:50,266 --> 00:19:51,133
didn't understand

520
00:19:51,133 --> 00:19:53,566
what they were doing but thought they did and thus

521
00:19:53,566 --> 00:19:57,500
did damage by acting poorly um

522
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,566
in in in in their name giving Plato himself

523
00:20:01,566 --> 00:20:04,566
the blame for the the destructive things done by

524
00:20:04,566 --> 00:20:08,200
people who thought they were his followers um or

525
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:09,866
dishonestly so by design

526
00:20:09,866 --> 00:20:12,066
where people call themselves Platonists

527
00:20:12,666 --> 00:20:15,166
and yet were only neoplatonic

528
00:20:15,333 --> 00:20:18,500
uh hermeticists uh basically the the enemies of Plato

529
00:20:18,833 --> 00:20:19,700
that uh

530
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,033
that also gave Plato a bad name and uh

531
00:20:23,033 --> 00:20:25,533
you know speaking to the the second one for the moment

532
00:20:25,833 --> 00:20:28,166
if you look at uh for example

533
00:20:29,033 --> 00:20:30,933
um Leo Strauss

534
00:20:30,933 --> 00:20:33,400
or or people I was thinking that yeah right

535
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,733
that's a great example of a modern neo Platonist who um

536
00:20:36,933 --> 00:20:39,300
you know Plato in in the Republic again

537
00:20:39,433 --> 00:20:42,166
most of the Neoplatonists get their material they

538
00:20:42,166 --> 00:20:44,800
they extract it from and then and then spin it to their

539
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,033
to their inclinations from the Republic

540
00:20:47,066 --> 00:20:49,433
as well as to a certain degree from the Timaeus

541
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:54,266
uh those that are a bit more um occult alchemically

542
00:20:54,266 --> 00:20:56,933
minded will will will misuse the information

543
00:20:56,933 --> 00:21:00,033
presented in the Timaeus dialogue um

544
00:21:00,033 --> 00:21:03,566
but those who are more fascistically minded directly um

545
00:21:03,633 --> 00:21:07,033
like Leo Strauss will get it will extract and misuse

546
00:21:07,033 --> 00:21:08,566
the information from the Republic

547
00:21:09,433 --> 00:21:10,633
specifically the sections

548
00:21:10,633 --> 00:21:13,866
where where Socrates refers to the noble lie the noble

549
00:21:13,866 --> 00:21:16,033
lie that's you know needed to keep the masses

550
00:21:16,033 --> 00:21:20,466
in under a state of of subjugation or influence and um

551
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,633
and Leo Strauss you know he taught the first generation

552
00:21:24,633 --> 00:21:27,033
of what became the neo conservative

553
00:21:27,566 --> 00:21:30,366
um cabal in America and back in the 19

554
00:21:30,366 --> 00:21:32,666
he was teaching in I think the school of Chicago

555
00:21:32,966 --> 00:21:35,533
back in the the 30s and the 40s and the 50s

556
00:21:35,566 --> 00:21:37,866
and uh and his uh students

557
00:21:37,866 --> 00:21:40,000
became Donald Rumsfeld became Richard Perle

558
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:41,900
became Paul Wolfowitz you know they were all

559
00:21:41,933 --> 00:21:44,000
followers of his secret teaching

560
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,333
you know and there there's been a number of of exposés

561
00:21:47,566 --> 00:21:49,766
showcasing the secret teachings of Leo Strauss

562
00:21:50,366 --> 00:21:51,966
um and his two different schools

563
00:21:51,966 --> 00:21:54,533
where he would plant seeds in his classroom um

564
00:21:55,033 --> 00:21:57,666
during his his lectures where he would

565
00:21:57,833 --> 00:22:00,566
say but you know he'll give his lesson about Socrates

566
00:22:00,566 --> 00:22:02,200
but then he'll say but you know the real gentleman

567
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:03,866
thinks differently and then he'll just move on

568
00:22:03,866 --> 00:22:05,600
knowing that the way he spoke

569
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,066
was of such a provocative

570
00:22:08,966 --> 00:22:10,166
obscurantist

571
00:22:10,766 --> 00:22:13,733
language that it would provoke the thinking students

572
00:22:13,733 --> 00:22:17,233
in his classroom to come to him after class and say what did you mean by that professor

573
00:22:17,266 --> 00:22:18,133
and he'd say oh come

574
00:22:18,133 --> 00:22:20,233
come to my office we'll have a separate conversation

575
00:22:21,033 --> 00:22:22,166
and that's how he would recruit

576
00:22:22,166 --> 00:22:24,866
talent and I think that's been an old school technique of recruiting

577
00:22:25,766 --> 00:22:27,666
special boys special talents

578
00:22:28,833 --> 00:22:31,833
for the for that would go on to to be elevated

579
00:22:31,833 --> 00:22:34,466
with more privileges in the the machinations

580
00:22:34,466 --> 00:22:37,033
of empire going back to the days of Lord Alfred

581
00:22:37,033 --> 00:22:38,566
Milner and Cecil Rhodes and the Milner

582
00:22:38,566 --> 00:22:40,633
kindergarten of young Oxford men

583
00:22:40,733 --> 00:22:42,900
or the earlier uh Cambridge apostles

584
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,833
who also called themselves neo Platonists

585
00:22:44,833 --> 00:22:47,333
the Cambridge Apostles which people like Bertrand

586
00:22:47,333 --> 00:22:48,466
Russell Lord Bertrand Russell

587
00:22:48,466 --> 00:22:51,300
and and John Maynard Keynes and and uh

588
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,100
um Al Al Al Alfred North Whitehead

589
00:22:55,733 --> 00:23:00,033
um they were all Cambridge apostles Neoplatonists um

590
00:23:00,033 --> 00:23:02,333
who again were probably as young boys all recruited

591
00:23:02,333 --> 00:23:05,066
in that fashion from their mentors

592
00:23:05,466 --> 00:23:08,033
um that would speak to them in in you know private

593
00:23:08,033 --> 00:23:10,633
with some ice cream maybe after class you know

594
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,666
um so yeah you've got but they're part of a lineage

595
00:23:14,733 --> 00:23:18,533
um for example Peter Peter Thiel wrote a a a document

596
00:23:18,566 --> 00:23:21,866
based on his Stanford lectures in 2,007 um

597
00:23:22,133 --> 00:23:24,500
called the The Straussian Moment

598
00:23:24,566 --> 00:23:25,800
and within that document

599
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,966
which I I encourage people to read

600
00:23:27,966 --> 00:23:32,300
it's only maybe 20 pages it's it's a useful essay um

601
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,266
he situates himself in the Straussian

602
00:23:34,266 --> 00:23:35,966
tradition he goes through how Richard Perle

603
00:23:35,966 --> 00:23:37,733
also was somebody who

604
00:23:37,733 --> 00:23:40,333
shaped his world view as when he was a student

605
00:23:40,433 --> 00:23:44,366
in the 80s in Stanford um but he also situates it

606
00:23:44,966 --> 00:23:46,300
as as

607
00:23:46,566 --> 00:23:50,066
something that goes far earlier back than even Strauss

608
00:23:50,133 --> 00:23:55,233
and situates it within the context of John Lock who he

609
00:23:55,266 --> 00:23:57,766
posits correctly so had a secret doctrine

610
00:23:57,833 --> 00:24:02,333
an open one for the the the uninitiated at court

611
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,333
and and for the public you know and and then

612
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,200
another doctrine

613
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,133
another secret doctrine that he maintained

614
00:24:08,166 --> 00:24:09,533
as part of an unbroken

615
00:24:09,733 --> 00:24:12,166
continuity of tradition that he also situates earlier

616
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,233
uh Hobbes Thomas Hobbes

617
00:24:14,333 --> 00:24:17,100
and and bacon um a patron of Hobbes

618
00:24:17,666 --> 00:24:20,733
uh to having been purveyors of the Secret Doctrine

619
00:24:21,033 --> 00:24:23,333
and so he's he's clearly situating himself

620
00:24:23,333 --> 00:24:25,233
with an gnostic tradition these are the mystery

621
00:24:25,233 --> 00:24:28,600
schools of the Gnostics that were earlier uh opponents

622
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,866
of the of the Nicene Christian

623
00:24:30,866 --> 00:24:34,966
movement of LED by Paul and and the uh the the

624
00:24:34,966 --> 00:24:37,800
the you know what became the Augustinian the platonic

625
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,000
the platonic church fathers as

626
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,166
Saint Augustine found himself

627
00:24:41,166 --> 00:24:43,533
I think as a leading champion of that more healthy

628
00:24:43,566 --> 00:24:46,033
Christian movement but always in opposition to this

629
00:24:46,066 --> 00:24:48,200
Manichaean gnostic movement of

630
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,633
Neoplatonists who had been seated like little gurus

631
00:24:50,633 --> 00:24:51,433
again each

632
00:24:51,633 --> 00:24:54,466
gnostic sect whether the Valentinian School or the

633
00:24:54,466 --> 00:24:56,233
Balshitis School or the

634
00:24:56,233 --> 00:24:58,600
the Serinthus School there's a number of these

635
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,833
hundreds even of these influential little little cults

636
00:25:01,833 --> 00:25:03,333
of Gnostics that called themselves

637
00:25:03,333 --> 00:25:05,700
Christian but had a whole different secret scripture

638
00:25:05,766 --> 00:25:08,166
with secret messaging and and teachings

639
00:25:08,466 --> 00:25:11,666
that themselves were were uh organized

640
00:25:11,866 --> 00:25:14,666
by these neoplatonic um

641
00:25:15,566 --> 00:25:18,366
uh priests that at that time

642
00:25:18,366 --> 00:25:22,233
were I think hubbed or based principally in uh

643
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:23,733
in Athens

644
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,000
but also in in in uh Delphi that that

645
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,200
remained a hub of

646
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,766
control of cult creation religious engineering even

647
00:25:31,766 --> 00:25:33,033
back back in those days

648
00:25:33,366 --> 00:25:36,466
and this is what the what Christian like Christianity

649
00:25:36,933 --> 00:25:37,433
had to fight

650
00:25:37,433 --> 00:25:39,333
against and the best of Christianity you'll find

651
00:25:39,333 --> 00:25:40,600
within the philosophical treaties

652
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,933
or the philosophical writings of within the Gospels

653
00:25:42,933 --> 00:25:44,666
within the the way that the teachings

654
00:25:44,866 --> 00:25:46,400
and the insights are constructed

655
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,533
within the Gospels and within the acts

656
00:25:48,533 --> 00:25:50,566
the writings of Paul um

657
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,266
the best of platonic philosophy um

658
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,633
the best of it is located within those writings and

659
00:25:55,633 --> 00:25:56,733
and the fake

660
00:25:56,733 --> 00:25:58,400
platonic philosophy you'll find is located

661
00:25:58,400 --> 00:25:59,233
within the writings

662
00:25:59,333 --> 00:26:02,100
of the the Gnostic Nag Hammadi scriptures

663
00:26:02,433 --> 00:26:03,333
that feature always

664
00:26:03,333 --> 00:26:05,400
you know the the Neoplatonic secret doctrine

665
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,566
promises of the initiated perfects

666
00:26:07,833 --> 00:26:10,533
those who will be able to attain perfection and again

667
00:26:10,533 --> 00:26:11,833
in Plato's there's

668
00:26:11,833 --> 00:26:14,200
there's one particular document that's very challenging

669
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,133
that Plato wrote exposing this and I think the most

670
00:26:17,266 --> 00:26:18,066
subtle

671
00:26:18,733 --> 00:26:22,166
polemical hilarious way but if you are a Neoplatonist

672
00:26:22,166 --> 00:26:23,533
you will not understand it

673
00:26:23,533 --> 00:26:25,133
and it's the it's called the softest

674
00:26:25,133 --> 00:26:26,400
he calls it the softest

675
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,133
and it takes place it it accompanies

676
00:26:28,133 --> 00:26:30,700
the Parmenides dialogue both of them are hilarious

677
00:26:31,066 --> 00:26:32,733
they're rigorous they're confusing

678
00:26:32,733 --> 00:26:34,633
for people who don't understand what this

679
00:26:34,633 --> 00:26:36,233
game is actually about and how it works

680
00:26:36,233 --> 00:26:38,866
but they are showcasing how

681
00:26:39,233 --> 00:26:42,333
the Neoplatonists construct a false

682
00:26:43,133 --> 00:26:48,166
Pythagorean a false dialectic method which um

683
00:26:48,233 --> 00:26:51,566
is easy to confuse it's like an evil doppelganger

684
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,066
a dark mirror of the real platonic method

685
00:26:54,166 --> 00:26:57,033
and showcasing it you situates within it

686
00:26:57,733 --> 00:27:00,200
Socrates as a young more naive man as a

687
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,333
as a as a teenager who's being influenced

688
00:27:03,466 --> 00:27:05,666
by this thing that looks like and smells

689
00:27:05,666 --> 00:27:07,933
like the Socratic method but it is not that

690
00:27:07,966 --> 00:27:11,133
it has elements right of of of wholeness

691
00:27:11,166 --> 00:27:13,466
that it focuses upon it has elements

692
00:27:13,533 --> 00:27:16,400
that try to bridge the the one and the many uh

693
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,666
the these these contradictions which Socrates

694
00:27:18,666 --> 00:27:19,833
and Plato are always

695
00:27:19,833 --> 00:27:22,466
trying to work to how do you how do you find a healthy

696
00:27:22,766 --> 00:27:24,733
resolution to these contradictions

697
00:27:24,733 --> 00:27:27,166
of the finite and the infinite of the one

698
00:27:27,166 --> 00:27:29,366
and the many the part and the whole of the

699
00:27:29,433 --> 00:27:32,333
of the you know how do you do it in a healthy way

700
00:27:32,433 --> 00:27:34,966
and the neo Platonists are also doing that

701
00:27:34,966 --> 00:27:38,533
but in a very unhealthy way because they resolve it in nothingness

702
00:27:39,033 --> 00:27:40,366
whereas um

703
00:27:40,366 --> 00:27:42,733
in the platonic world it's resolved in positive

704
00:27:42,733 --> 00:27:45,033
principles that are all different aspects

705
00:27:45,033 --> 00:27:47,033
of justice of beauty and truth and goodness

706
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,700
whereas in the neoplatonic world it's actually resolved

707
00:27:50,866 --> 00:27:53,166
all in ultimate the ultimate freedom

708
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,266
of of great nothingness the great void

709
00:27:56,633 --> 00:27:58,366
that's which resolves the seeming

710
00:27:58,366 --> 00:27:59,933
opposites of good and evil

711
00:27:59,933 --> 00:28:02,466
of many and one and these different things

712
00:28:02,466 --> 00:28:04,466
at the heart and kernel of it which he gets at in

713
00:28:04,466 --> 00:28:06,566
in a variety of ways in the softest dialogue

714
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,333
this concludes part two of a three part

715
00:28:09,333 --> 00:28:10,733
interview with Matt Harrett

716
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,466
part 3 follows in Episode thirteen

717
00:28:14,166 --> 00:28:15,133
Eric has traced

718
00:28:15,133 --> 00:28:18,166
two very different distortions of the cave allegory

719
00:28:18,366 --> 00:28:20,800
those who read the puppet masters as proof

720
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,966
of platonic fascism of sorts

721
00:28:23,066 --> 00:28:26,000
and those who read them approvingly calling themselves

722
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,733
Platonists or neo Platonists while doing so

723
00:28:29,133 --> 00:28:32,766
both he argues stop before the part that matters

724
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,033
the philosopher in Plato's telling

725
00:28:35,033 --> 00:28:36,366
is not the one who escapes

726
00:28:36,366 --> 00:28:38,100
into the light and stays there

727
00:28:38,266 --> 00:28:41,066
the obligation for the philosopher is to return

728
00:28:41,133 --> 00:28:42,800
even at personal risk

729
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,100
out of love for those still in the cave

730
00:28:46,066 --> 00:28:48,433
in Episode 13 Eric

731
00:28:48,433 --> 00:28:51,533
arrives at the deepest argument of the conversation

732
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:52,233
the divide

733
00:28:52,233 --> 00:28:55,366
between Plato and Aristotle has two fundamentally

734
00:28:55,366 --> 00:28:57,133
different operating systems

735
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,033
for how a civilization thinks

736
00:28:59,033 --> 00:29:01,133
and what that means for whether

737
00:29:01,133 --> 00:29:03,666
genuine human progress is possible

738
00:29:04,033 --> 00:29:06,266
so stay tuned for Episode 13

739
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:12,433
if you enjoyed this episode you can find notions

740
00:29:12,433 --> 00:29:15,866
of progress on YouTube Apple Podcast and Spotify

741
00:29:15,866 --> 00:29:18,233
and all the sources reading recommendations

742
00:29:18,233 --> 00:29:19,233
and further context

743
00:29:19,233 --> 00:29:21,300
for every episode are in the show notes

744
00:29:21,633 --> 00:29:23,300
if you are enjoying the series

745
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,500
liking the episode on YouTube and signing up for the newsletter

746
00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:28,466
at notions of progress.com

747
00:29:28,466 --> 00:29:31,100
really helps more people find these ideas

748
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:34,566
for those who want to go even deeper the Curators Flame

749
00:29:34,566 --> 00:29:36,166
blog and Substack

750
00:29:36,166 --> 00:29:38,566
newsletter accompany each episode with the questions

751
00:29:38,566 --> 00:29:42,266
the scholarship leaves open I'm Marshall tracing

752
00:29:42,266 --> 00:29:45,066
ideas of progress from antiquity to the age of AI

753
00:29:45,066 --> 00:29:47,933
and leaving the debates open for you to consider

754
00:29:48,166 --> 00:29:49,266
until next time