Breaking Things at Work: Gavin Mueller on the Luddites and Labor Resistance part 1

1
00:00:14,901 --> 00:00:16,811
Hi, welcome to Notions of Progress.

2
00:00:17,341 --> 00:00:19,641
Before we get started, just
a quick production note.

3
00:00:20,031 --> 00:00:22,511
For those watching this video
on YouTube, you'll notice this

4
00:00:22,511 --> 00:00:24,561
episode is presented in audio only.

5
00:00:25,171 --> 00:00:28,731
Um, that's because we ran into a technical
glitch recording that we weren't able to

6
00:00:28,731 --> 00:00:33,351
recover on the video side, but thankfully
the, the audio came through intact.

7
00:00:33,711 --> 00:00:36,681
The conversation itself
is not affected at all.

8
00:00:36,911 --> 00:00:40,151
This is a three-part conversation
with Gavin Mueller on the Luddite

9
00:00:40,161 --> 00:00:43,151
movement, and it's just as good to
listen to as it would've been to watch.

10
00:00:43,451 --> 00:00:44,521
Thanks for your patience

11
00:00:46,161 --> 00:00:50,721
In this installment, Professor Mueller
traces the Luddites themselves, the guild,

12
00:00:50,721 --> 00:00:54,471
the economy, the English Midlands, the
mechanization that threatened it, and the

13
00:00:54,471 --> 00:00:56,921
movement's rehabilitation decades later.

14
00:00:58,101 --> 00:01:01,661
Part two turns to the political
theory that discussed Marx,

15
00:01:01,881 --> 00:01:05,681
Taylorism, the technocracy movement,
and the birth of cybernetics.

16
00:01:06,291 --> 00:01:10,121
Part three brings the conversation
into the present from surveillance

17
00:01:10,121 --> 00:01:12,481
capitalism to artificial intelligence

18
00:01:14,225 --> 00:01:17,865
Hi, welcome to Notions of Progress,
the show that traces ideas of progress

19
00:01:17,865 --> 00:01:19,545
from antiquity to the age of AI.

20
00:01:20,395 --> 00:01:23,185
Today, we are very lucky to have a
special guest here today from the

21
00:01:23,185 --> 00:01:24,995
University of Amsterdam, Gavin Mueller.

22
00:01:25,365 --> 00:01:29,035
Professor Mueller is a lecturer for,
on new media and digital studies

23
00:01:29,075 --> 00:01:30,575
at the University of Amsterdam.

24
00:01:30,665 --> 00:01:33,785
And today we're gonna dive into
his book, Breaking Things at Work,

25
00:01:33,875 --> 00:01:37,115
uh, which discusses the Luddite
amongst many other things, and we're

26
00:01:37,165 --> 00:01:41,815
talking about v- uh, workers' rights,
capitalism, technology, automation,

27
00:01:42,105 --> 00:01:44,005
and resistance, and a whole lot more.

28
00:01:44,415 --> 00:01:45,435
Gavin, welcome.

29
00:01:45,895 --> 00:01:46,285
Thank you.

30
00:01:46,455 --> 00:01:48,475
Thank you for, uh, thank you for coming.

31
00:01:48,585 --> 00:01:49,805
No, thank you for having me.

32
00:01:50,005 --> 00:01:52,905
Let me first start off to say that
I thoroughly enjoyed your book.

33
00:01:52,975 --> 00:01:53,425
Oh, thank you.

34
00:01:53,425 --> 00:01:55,665
I really did, and I'm glad that
you're giving me the opportunity

35
00:01:55,665 --> 00:01:57,975
to kinda go through this with
you and talk about it in depth.

36
00:01:58,375 --> 00:02:02,071
Before we dive into the book, just why
don't you talk a little bit about- You're

37
00:02:02,071 --> 00:02:04,941
working, a little bit about how you
kind of arrived here at the university?

38
00:02:05,231 --> 00:02:05,651
Okay.

39
00:02:05,711 --> 00:02:10,691
Um, yeah, well, I teach in a media studies
department, but a media studies department

40
00:02:10,691 --> 00:02:17,591
that's also very interested in, uh, the
technologies that, that surround media.

41
00:02:17,611 --> 00:02:21,701
So, um, our approach to media is
you have to understand something

42
00:02:21,701 --> 00:02:23,721
of the technologies behind it.

43
00:02:23,781 --> 00:02:28,741
So, uh, in that way, I think
my work connects to a lot of

44
00:02:28,741 --> 00:02:29,831
the things that we do here.

45
00:02:29,831 --> 00:02:33,391
But I would say there's also a little
bit of a, um, independence in that.

46
00:02:33,441 --> 00:02:38,301
Um, I, I also-- uh, my dissertation was
on media piracy, and I, I've written

47
00:02:38,301 --> 00:02:41,541
some other things that are, I think,
more sort of traditional media studies

48
00:02:41,541 --> 00:02:45,271
and, uh, maybe a little bit less, uh,
about sort of technology and politics.

49
00:02:45,281 --> 00:02:45,291
Hmm.

50
00:02:45,301 --> 00:02:49,771
So I guess, you know, one thing
that is nice about where I work is

51
00:02:49,771 --> 00:02:54,091
I have a kind of freedom to sort of
go where I want with my research.

52
00:02:54,111 --> 00:02:57,851
Um, and then my teaching, um, you know,
sometimes that overlaps, and sometimes

53
00:02:57,851 --> 00:03:02,511
it's, uh, sometimes it's a bit distinct
and, and, you know, sort of say, okay,

54
00:03:03,041 --> 00:03:07,751
what's going on in, you know, media theory
and what-- how do we teach the students?

55
00:03:07,751 --> 00:03:11,291
And I think that's a little bit
separate from some of these other

56
00:03:11,291 --> 00:03:13,021
things, which is, you know, that's…

57
00:03:13,141 --> 00:03:14,441
I think that's actually healthy.

58
00:03:15,161 --> 00:03:19,701
You know, most people have a, a separation
between, you know, the job they do and

59
00:03:19,701 --> 00:03:21,171
the, the other things that they work on.

60
00:03:21,171 --> 00:03:24,781
And, and I would say that maybe
I have that less so than some

61
00:03:24,781 --> 00:03:25,911
people, but it's still there.

62
00:03:26,911 --> 00:03:29,191
And is it a large crossover
with political theory as well?

63
00:03:29,191 --> 00:03:30,901
Because I definitely can sense
that strain in your work.

64
00:03:30,901 --> 00:03:31,291
Yeah.

65
00:03:31,291 --> 00:03:35,361
I mean, um, yeah, I, I think, uh,
yeah, that would also mark me as

66
00:03:35,361 --> 00:03:38,681
maybe a little bit different, uh,
than, than some of my colleagues

67
00:03:38,701 --> 00:03:41,761
that, yeah, it's political theory is
something that, that I'm interested

68
00:03:41,761 --> 00:03:44,141
in and, and in political economy.

69
00:03:44,141 --> 00:03:47,301
I f- I do have plenty of-- I would
say all-- most, if not all of my

70
00:03:47,301 --> 00:03:50,211
colleagues are also interested in
the politics of technology and often

71
00:03:50,221 --> 00:03:55,011
the, the economics, um, of, of sort
of media and the internet platforms.

72
00:03:55,041 --> 00:03:59,361
So, but yeah, I would say the political
focus is a little bit different.

73
00:03:59,361 --> 00:04:03,551
I teach, um, at an art institute,
which is where I can do a little

74
00:04:03,551 --> 00:04:07,061
bit more kind of critical theory-
Fantastic … that engages with

75
00:04:07,131 --> 00:04:08,651
the political a little bit more.

76
00:04:08,651 --> 00:04:12,181
Although it's also an art school,
so they're not always interested in

77
00:04:12,181 --> 00:04:13,681
politics in the same way that I am.

78
00:04:13,681 --> 00:04:15,691
But they're, they're often
interested in ideas that are,

79
00:04:15,691 --> 00:04:18,061
like, interesting and intriguing
and that they want to turn over.

80
00:04:18,491 --> 00:04:23,141
Um, so it's a little bit less practical,
and so sometimes that's a nice outlet.

81
00:04:23,151 --> 00:04:27,681
But, uh, but yeah, often to scratch
my political itch, I, you know,

82
00:04:27,681 --> 00:04:32,507
it's somewhat Uh, distinct from the
work that I do at the university.

83
00:04:32,507 --> 00:04:35,757
It's doing other things and talking
to other kinds of people as much

84
00:04:35,757 --> 00:04:38,087
as it is, uh, with academics, so.

85
00:04:38,307 --> 00:04:40,287
Well, going through your book,
I would say it'd be very hard if

86
00:04:40,287 --> 00:04:42,677
you, if you didn't know what your
background was, for me, it would be

87
00:04:42,717 --> 00:04:44,107
very hard to categorize your own way.

88
00:04:44,377 --> 00:04:45,257
No, no, in a good way.

89
00:04:45,557 --> 00:04:46,167
In a good way.

90
00:04:46,477 --> 00:04:49,857
Because, um, you know, I was gonna
say that, again, you, we, you talked

91
00:04:49,867 --> 00:04:52,777
about the Luddites, you talked about
Mar- there's Marxist theory in here,

92
00:04:52,797 --> 00:04:56,297
there's theory on the labor movement
Mm-hmm … discussions about automation,

93
00:04:56,507 --> 00:04:58,607
technology, the theory of technology.

94
00:04:58,777 --> 00:05:02,577
Just so, there's, you touch so many
areas, and you know, I was gonna say,

95
00:05:02,577 --> 00:05:06,607
one of the things that I liked the most
about this book, uh, was that you can

96
00:05:06,607 --> 00:05:09,227
point to a million different topics
that you raised in the book, almost

97
00:05:09,227 --> 00:05:12,767
as if you were reading like a history,
and at the same time, you didn't force

98
00:05:12,767 --> 00:05:13,957
the reader to tie things together.

99
00:05:15,057 --> 00:05:16,537
That's what I came to
on my own when I read.

100
00:05:16,537 --> 00:05:16,957
Oh, yeah.

101
00:05:16,957 --> 00:05:19,757
That's, that's, it's interesting
that you say that because I think,

102
00:05:20,197 --> 00:05:24,637
you know, that does sort of resonate
with kind of an approach that I

103
00:05:24,637 --> 00:05:25,737
wanted to take with this book.

104
00:05:25,807 --> 00:05:27,067
I mean, it's a fairly short book.

105
00:05:27,347 --> 00:05:30,387
I'm not trying, I wasn't trying
to write a kind of definitive

106
00:05:30,387 --> 00:05:31,527
history of the Luddites- Yeah.

107
00:05:31,527 --> 00:05:32,547
Yeah … like Brian is doing.

108
00:05:32,617 --> 00:05:34,787
I wasn't trying to kind
of solve every problem.

109
00:05:34,787 --> 00:05:38,487
It was more, I don't think I
can, I don't think I can do that.

110
00:05:38,707 --> 00:05:42,687
I think it was more I wanted to kind
of raise a set of questions and draw

111
00:05:42,697 --> 00:05:46,317
a set of connections that, that,
that precisely what you're saying,

112
00:05:46,317 --> 00:05:49,847
that other people can kind of fill
in or make, you know, continue to

113
00:05:49,847 --> 00:05:51,847
develop those kind of connections.

114
00:05:51,857 --> 00:05:55,325
I would say that You know, there's,
I guess there's a bunch of different

115
00:05:55,325 --> 00:05:58,365
approaches you can have with a book,
and sometimes academics, you know, you

116
00:05:58,365 --> 00:06:02,855
wanna have the, the definitive work,
the final word on this subject, right?

117
00:06:03,395 --> 00:06:05,155
Um, and there's a value to that, you know.

118
00:06:05,155 --> 00:06:08,835
That's a, that's a very challenging
and, and an often worthwhile project.

119
00:06:09,025 --> 00:06:11,875
It's not really the work that
I could envision myself doing.

120
00:06:11,875 --> 00:06:17,375
I'm more of a starting a conversation kind
of, kind of projects that those are what's

121
00:06:17,375 --> 00:06:21,815
interesting to me, and I think that's one
thing that's been very rewarding about

122
00:06:21,815 --> 00:06:26,545
this book is that it, it, it seems to…
I seem to have s- had some success in

123
00:06:26,545 --> 00:06:29,635
that, in that, you know, folks like you
wanna come through, wanna have a chat,

124
00:06:29,645 --> 00:06:33,485
have a lot of different interesting,
um, ways that they've connected to it.

125
00:06:33,725 --> 00:06:36,645
Also, different academics, you
know, sometimes it's historians,

126
00:06:36,675 --> 00:06:40,965
sometimes it's, uh, uh, people in
sort of media and technology studies.

127
00:06:40,975 --> 00:06:45,775
So, uh, sometimes it's more people who are
in kind of the, the critical theory space.

128
00:06:45,785 --> 00:06:51,105
So- Sure … that's also been, um, a
really, uh, interesting part of, of the

129
00:06:51,115 --> 00:06:55,975
book is, you know, having-- I think, uh,
something I kinda wanted to do was not

130
00:06:55,985 --> 00:07:00,235
have a, a sort of one way of receiving
the book in mind, like, "This is the

131
00:07:00,255 --> 00:07:01,505
thing I want you to get out of it."

132
00:07:01,505 --> 00:07:06,805
It was more of a, I wonder, you know, what
would happen, what's going to happen when

133
00:07:06,805 --> 00:07:08,245
this comes out, or who's going to read it?

134
00:07:08,255 --> 00:07:11,215
It's kind of, um, like
almost like an experiment.

135
00:07:11,225 --> 00:07:12,525
So, um, so yeah.

136
00:07:12,525 --> 00:07:16,375
So it's really, I think it's totally,
you know, on point that that's kind

137
00:07:16,375 --> 00:07:19,129
of, uh, what you got out of reading
it because I think- Fantastic

138
00:07:19,129 --> 00:07:22,435
that was, that was kind of
the approach I was taking.

139
00:07:22,435 --> 00:07:23,625
Like, let's start something.

140
00:07:23,625 --> 00:07:25,395
Let's, you know, suggest some things.

141
00:07:25,395 --> 00:07:29,275
But ultimately, I think a lot of this
stuff, you know, a lot of political

142
00:07:29,285 --> 00:07:32,325
theory, you have to kind of, you
know, put it to the test of history.

143
00:07:32,375 --> 00:07:38,013
So, so far I, I, I feel like my
approach was historically informed.

144
00:07:38,603 --> 00:07:42,323
Um, but ultimately, you know, history
keeps going and, and, you know, it's

145
00:07:42,323 --> 00:07:45,293
hard to say things are gonna happen
one way or another, but maybe these

146
00:07:45,293 --> 00:07:49,553
are some ideas and some perspectives to
keep in mind as, you know, we continue

147
00:07:49,553 --> 00:07:51,433
on, uh, through the course of history.

148
00:07:51,493 --> 00:07:52,133
Fantastic.

149
00:07:52,283 --> 00:07:53,653
And, and we're gonna start
diving into the book.

150
00:07:53,943 --> 00:07:56,973
And, you know, just to give you a
one-second background about kind of what

151
00:07:56,973 --> 00:07:59,803
I'm doing with the show and, and again,
why it kind of resonated with me, is

152
00:07:59,803 --> 00:08:02,893
because I'm actually trying to look at the
idea of progress, and I'm actually trying

153
00:08:02,893 --> 00:08:06,863
to question all the assumptions regarding
how people even come to this definition.

154
00:08:06,953 --> 00:08:07,183
Sure.

155
00:08:07,293 --> 00:08:10,713
And, and, you know, the report, the parts
in the book where you talked about the

156
00:08:10,713 --> 00:08:14,433
perception of technological progress,
almost as if you can't discuss those

157
00:08:14,433 --> 00:08:15,793
two words unless they're connected.

158
00:08:15,923 --> 00:08:18,903
Mm. So I started this book going back
to Greek thinkers- Right … or back to

159
00:08:18,903 --> 00:08:21,323
Aristotle, and they're talking about,
they're talking about a version of

160
00:08:21,323 --> 00:08:22,793
progress where there were no machines.

161
00:08:23,213 --> 00:08:24,023
So it's very interesting.

162
00:08:24,023 --> 00:08:24,923
Yeah, absolutely.

163
00:08:24,963 --> 00:08:28,113
Uh, so for me, I… So when going through
your book, I had that same feeling that

164
00:08:28,113 --> 00:08:31,863
this was, that you weren't, there were
no definitions we had to work against.

165
00:08:31,863 --> 00:08:34,193
We were like, you were talking about
it, like you said, historically.

166
00:08:34,483 --> 00:08:36,293
So let's start with
this, why the Luddites?

167
00:08:36,303 --> 00:08:39,713
Of, of a starting place for this book,
um, I don't know if this was a particular

168
00:08:39,713 --> 00:08:42,353
interest of yours, you know- Yeah … in
your studies, or this, or you, did

169
00:08:42,353 --> 00:08:44,263
you come about this as, as an example?

170
00:08:44,263 --> 00:08:45,113
Or why, why the Luddites?

171
00:08:45,153 --> 00:08:50,063
I think I was, what I was interested
in was the, the connection between,

172
00:08:50,483 --> 00:08:52,243
um, technology and capitalism.

173
00:08:52,243 --> 00:08:56,183
The, the question of, of the politics
of that, which means that, you

174
00:08:56,183 --> 00:09:00,043
know, there should be some, um, was
there any kind of resistance, right?

175
00:09:00,383 --> 00:09:04,413
Is a kind of question that I've
sort of learned to ask, uh, through

176
00:09:04,413 --> 00:09:07,733
kind of, you know, facing s- uh,
sort of critical issues, right?

177
00:09:07,783 --> 00:09:11,633
And so the Luddites are really
convenient in many ways.

178
00:09:11,853 --> 00:09:17,613
Uh, so one, they're, uh, they,
they're a very clear sort of case

179
00:09:17,653 --> 00:09:20,543
of resistance to new technologies.

180
00:09:20,543 --> 00:09:25,313
In fact, they're so… It was, you know,
s- such a, a strong connection there

181
00:09:25,313 --> 00:09:29,043
that, you know, to be a Luddite even
now is a term that people recognize,

182
00:09:29,043 --> 00:09:31,843
oh, you- Right … you, you don't like
smartphones or something like that.

183
00:09:31,873 --> 00:09:33,673
Um, so it's still a term we use, right?

184
00:09:33,673 --> 00:09:35,073
They still have this kind of legacy.

185
00:09:35,073 --> 00:09:38,763
So it's, it's a, it's
a, a case of resistance.

186
00:09:38,763 --> 00:09:41,673
It's, it's also something
that lasts in living memory,

187
00:09:41,703 --> 00:09:43,743
so that's, you know, useful.

188
00:09:43,833 --> 00:09:46,473
People know what a Luddite is, or
it's a term they've heard before.

189
00:09:46,693 --> 00:09:52,587
But also it's happening right at
the dawn of industrial capitalism.

190
00:09:52,627 --> 00:09:58,227
So it's a very great, uh, place to start
if you wanna sort of trace this, you know,

191
00:09:58,237 --> 00:10:03,447
what happens, what are, what are responses
of workers to new technologies through

192
00:10:03,447 --> 00:10:05,397
the, the course of industrial capitalism.

193
00:10:05,397 --> 00:10:07,467
Well, we can start right at the
beginning, and there's like one

194
00:10:07,467 --> 00:10:10,357
of the most famous examples is
just staring at you in the face.

195
00:10:10,367 --> 00:10:15,167
So, so it's a… It was a really, uh,
in some ways a very obvious choice.

196
00:10:15,387 --> 00:10:19,107
Um, and I don't know if I
had always intended to sort

197
00:10:19,107 --> 00:10:21,017
of kind of rescue the term.

198
00:10:21,427 --> 00:10:25,467
I'm not the first person, of
course, to try to revise the

199
00:10:25,497 --> 00:10:27,307
historical legacy of the Luddites.

200
00:10:27,307 --> 00:10:31,177
I mentioned a few people, a
few his- major historical, uh,

201
00:10:31,177 --> 00:10:32,847
treatments in the book by E.P.

202
00:10:32,847 --> 00:10:34,417
Thompson and Eric Hobsbawm.

203
00:10:34,437 --> 00:10:36,367
Which I would love-- Well,
y'all wanna go into that?

204
00:10:36,437 --> 00:10:36,787
Okay.

205
00:10:36,787 --> 00:10:36,937
Okay.

206
00:10:36,957 --> 00:10:36,977
Yeah.

207
00:10:37,027 --> 00:10:38,097
No, 100%.

208
00:10:38,117 --> 00:10:38,677
Very important.

209
00:10:38,727 --> 00:10:39,227
Um, so yeah.

210
00:10:39,227 --> 00:10:41,767
So that's… I, I was like
a, a good place to start.

211
00:10:41,767 --> 00:10:45,077
And, and al-also I would say, you know,
it's a little bit provocative, right?

212
00:10:45,087 --> 00:10:48,867
To take this kind of term, a Luddite,
which many people use in a sort of

213
00:10:48,867 --> 00:10:52,357
negative way and say, "Well, there's,
there's actually quite a bit more going

214
00:10:52,357 --> 00:10:57,167
on here, and maybe we can actually
learn something from, from these people

215
00:10:57,167 --> 00:11:01,437
that, you know, we're, we, we treat
as sort of irrational at this point."

216
00:11:02,097 --> 00:11:02,447
Yeah.

217
00:11:02,507 --> 00:11:06,277
And, and I was gonna say, you
know, again, the word itself has

218
00:11:06,277 --> 00:11:07,577
a negative connotation to it.

219
00:11:07,617 --> 00:11:10,517
But at the same time, I think one of the
things that I got from the book that I

220
00:11:10,517 --> 00:11:15,267
was really… is that Well, that's…
You can almost see how at the time people

221
00:11:15,267 --> 00:11:17,077
put this connotation onto that word.

222
00:11:17,357 --> 00:11:20,067
But you brought up Hobbs Bourne,
and we'll go into him later.

223
00:11:20,267 --> 00:11:21,777
He didn't necessarily see it that way.

224
00:11:21,807 --> 00:11:21,837
Right.

225
00:11:22,247 --> 00:11:25,607
And, um, and I think he was kind of like
rescuing the word itself in addition

226
00:11:25,607 --> 00:11:26,617
to kind of what the movement was.

227
00:11:26,627 --> 00:11:26,647
Mm-hmm.

228
00:11:26,987 --> 00:11:29,907
Well, tell me a little bit
about, uh, the movement itself.

229
00:11:30,157 --> 00:11:32,637
Uh, you know, there's, there's lots
of interesting descriptions there.

230
00:11:32,637 --> 00:11:36,157
It has a bit of a Robin Hood mythical
quality to it, and I just- Yeah

231
00:11:36,297 --> 00:11:38,097
tell me a little about the,
like the actual movement itself.

232
00:11:38,597 --> 00:11:42,217
In, in, in fact, it- it's geographically
it's more or less in the same place

233
00:11:42,217 --> 00:11:44,247
that Robin Hood, uh, takes place.

234
00:11:44,337 --> 00:11:49,267
Mm. So, uh, yeah, so th- there were--
was a really large, uh, textile

235
00:11:49,267 --> 00:11:51,177
industry in the Midlands of England.

236
00:11:51,187 --> 00:11:53,317
Had been going on for a long time.

237
00:11:53,357 --> 00:11:55,937
People who would, um, you
know, make textiles and then

238
00:11:55,937 --> 00:11:57,847
also turn those into garments.

239
00:11:58,107 --> 00:12:02,167
Uh, stockings were, were, um, a big
point of contention with the Luddites.

240
00:12:02,167 --> 00:12:05,297
And so these were skilled
craftspeople, right?

241
00:12:05,297 --> 00:12:08,717
And they were, they were part of a
guild, which meant that the Crown said,

242
00:12:08,737 --> 00:12:11,107
"Okay, you guys run this industry.

243
00:12:11,407 --> 00:12:12,357
You have a charter.

244
00:12:12,357 --> 00:12:16,067
We're permitting you to do this,
and you also can, you know, sort

245
00:12:16,067 --> 00:12:17,587
of run it the way you want." Right?

246
00:12:17,607 --> 00:12:19,877
There are certain rules around
being an apprentice and, you

247
00:12:19,877 --> 00:12:20,957
know, those kinds of things.

248
00:12:21,447 --> 00:12:24,357
Um, and they were quite prosperous.

249
00:12:24,447 --> 00:12:28,797
Uh, you know, you had a kind of
influx of, of cotton from the New

250
00:12:28,807 --> 00:12:31,437
World and from the colonies overseas.

251
00:12:31,897 --> 00:12:33,327
Uh, they were doing very
well for themselves.

252
00:12:33,327 --> 00:12:36,937
These were very highly developed
industries and skilled craftspeople

253
00:12:37,447 --> 00:12:42,737
who took a real pride in their work and
had these kind of strong communities

254
00:12:42,737 --> 00:12:46,487
full of people who were, um, you know,
you know, they, they had their jobs,

255
00:12:46,487 --> 00:12:50,367
they did their jobs, they liked their
jobs in many cases, but also they had

256
00:12:50,367 --> 00:12:54,687
a kind of autonomy over their work that
allowed them to do other things, right?

257
00:12:54,697 --> 00:12:58,137
So they were, you know, uh, I, I think
there's a kind of a almost like an English

258
00:12:58,137 --> 00:12:59,991
tradition of being an autodidact, right?

259
00:12:59,991 --> 00:13:02,837
Mm. Kind of have all these little
pastimes and hobbies and stuff.

260
00:13:02,857 --> 00:13:06,447
You know, there's a lot of E.P. Thompson
writes about a lot of these, these

261
00:13:06,447 --> 00:13:10,857
folks who had, um, who were poets and
gardeners and, uh, you know, amateur

262
00:13:10,897 --> 00:13:13,097
entomologists and things like that, right?

263
00:13:13,177 --> 00:13:18,457
So, uh, you know, everything's going
very well for the most part until…

264
00:13:18,497 --> 00:13:21,557
Well, it's not, actually not the first
time this has happened, but the, the,

265
00:13:21,587 --> 00:13:23,597
the, the most sort of notable time.

266
00:13:23,607 --> 00:13:28,637
In the early nineteenth century, um, new
machines are developed that are introduced

267
00:13:28,647 --> 00:13:34,187
that will, uh, do some of these work
processes that the, the weavers are doing.

268
00:13:34,187 --> 00:13:35,397
Um- These are the frames?

269
00:13:35,547 --> 00:13:37,717
Yeah, the stocking frames-
Yeah … and also the ging mill.

270
00:13:37,747 --> 00:13:42,937
And what those things will do is
they will, they effectively mechanize

271
00:13:43,007 --> 00:13:44,737
some of this more laborious work.

272
00:13:45,207 --> 00:13:48,837
Um, but there's a few… And
that on the surface sounds,

273
00:13:48,837 --> 00:13:50,267
oh, that's not so bad, right?

274
00:13:50,387 --> 00:13:54,047
Mm. But there's some really important
kind of social repercussions here.

275
00:13:54,047 --> 00:13:58,137
One is that you… Of course, the
first thing that w- probably pops into

276
00:13:58,137 --> 00:14:01,497
our mind is, oh, if the machine is
doing it, then the labor gets cheaper,

277
00:14:01,837 --> 00:14:04,087
and it's absolutely part of it.

278
00:14:04,137 --> 00:14:08,077
Uh, but there were other problems that the
weavers had with the new machines, right?

279
00:14:08,077 --> 00:14:09,847
So they definitely had a problem with pay.

280
00:14:10,735 --> 00:14:15,505
They also had a kind of a, an
issue, like a regulatory issue.

281
00:14:15,525 --> 00:14:17,645
They were like, "This
is… You're not allowed.

282
00:14:17,675 --> 00:14:23,195
It's literally illegal for you to set
up textile manufacture without going

283
00:14:23,195 --> 00:14:26,585
through the guild." Mm. "You know, you
have to talk to us." Mm. "We run this,

284
00:14:26,825 --> 00:14:30,505
this trade." And they, in fact, they
w- when this started happening, th- one

285
00:14:30,505 --> 00:14:34,855
of the first things they did was they
petitioned the, the, the, they petitioned

286
00:14:34,855 --> 00:14:38,175
Parliament and the king, and they were
like, "Hey, uh, these guys are, you

287
00:14:38,175 --> 00:14:39,505
know, they're not following the rules."

288
00:14:39,815 --> 00:14:40,775
But they were ignored.

289
00:14:41,035 --> 00:14:44,325
So, um, but the other problems they
had with these new machines is, uh,

290
00:14:44,795 --> 00:14:48,895
the people that they would hire to
work them, um, at these lower rates

291
00:14:48,895 --> 00:14:52,295
were often women and children, and,
you know, that violated some kind of

292
00:14:52,325 --> 00:14:56,445
cultural, uh, mores that they had over
who should be doing this type of work.

293
00:14:56,455 --> 00:14:58,215
It was also very dangerous work, right?

294
00:14:58,215 --> 00:15:00,845
And all of a sudden, you know,
you have kids on these machines.

295
00:15:01,175 --> 00:15:02,685
Rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

296
00:15:02,985 --> 00:15:07,405
And I think another really underrated
part, but I think, uh, I f- I come back

297
00:15:07,405 --> 00:15:11,045
to this and think about it as being more
and more relevant when I wanna think

298
00:15:11,045 --> 00:15:16,775
about what we get out of the, the Luddites
in our contemporary moment, the quality

299
00:15:16,815 --> 00:15:19,885
of the product was really inferior.

300
00:15:19,985 --> 00:15:24,175
It was just really poor quality
textiles, poor quality stockings.

301
00:15:24,185 --> 00:15:28,265
So these weavers are like, "Look, you
know, when you see stockings that come

302
00:15:28,265 --> 00:15:32,855
out of the Midlands and they fall apart
immediately, that makes us look bad. You

303
00:15:32,855 --> 00:15:37,215
know, we take pride in what we do. Um, you
know, you're gonna wreck the whole trade

304
00:15:37,215 --> 00:15:40,205
with this shoddy mass-produced stuff."

305
00:15:40,235 --> 00:15:42,775
So they had all sorts
of problems with this.

306
00:15:42,815 --> 00:15:45,445
Uh, and th- you know, and they
tried a lot of things to deal

307
00:15:45,445 --> 00:15:46,575
with these problems, right?

308
00:15:46,615 --> 00:15:48,815
They said, "Okay, so the
king's not listening.

309
00:15:48,815 --> 00:15:50,695
Parliament's not really interested.

310
00:15:50,745 --> 00:15:52,205
They're fighting a war with Napoleon.

311
00:15:52,205 --> 00:15:52,755
They're busy.

312
00:15:53,005 --> 00:15:57,615
So well, let's talk to some of the factory
owners and say, 'Hey, you know, we, we

313
00:15:57,615 --> 00:16:02,055
kind of have a problem here, but you know,
if you agree to do things a little bit

314
00:16:02,055 --> 00:16:05,705
more like how we like to do them, kind
of preserve some of the pay rates, maybe

315
00:16:05,705 --> 00:16:09,255
preserve some of the working conditions,
you know, we're fine for some of these

316
00:16:09,255 --> 00:16:11,745
new machines to, to, to be happening.'"

317
00:16:11,955 --> 00:16:16,625
Well, very few factory owners saw it that
way and said, "You know, no, we're going

318
00:16:16,625 --> 00:16:22,325
to h- increase our profits by having lower
skilled labor mass produce these kind of

319
00:16:22,325 --> 00:16:26,045
shoddy goods. That's, that's exactly what
we're gonna do. So, you know, take off."

320
00:16:26,095 --> 00:16:31,545
And so that, um, friendly appeal to the
factory owners turned into something, um,

321
00:16:31,555 --> 00:16:33,595
more threatening and eventually violent.

322
00:16:34,055 --> 00:16:38,625
Uh, so they wrote, uh, there's a great,
um, compendium of these by, that was,

323
00:16:39,025 --> 00:16:40,955
uh, put together by Kevin Binfield.

324
00:16:40,955 --> 00:16:42,505
It's The Writings of the Luddites.

325
00:16:42,555 --> 00:16:46,295
It's a lot of the letters and manifestos
that they wrote, and they would send

326
00:16:46,295 --> 00:16:48,835
these to the factory owners saying,
you know, "You better watch your back.

327
00:16:48,855 --> 00:16:51,595
We're gonna get you if you don't,
you know, stop what you're doing."

328
00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:56,809
And, uh, and eventually, of course, the
most famous thing they did was they c-

329
00:16:56,849 --> 00:17:03,049
started conducting these kind of midnight
raids where they would go to a factory or

330
00:17:03,059 --> 00:17:07,229
a mill, as they called them, and break in
in the middle of the night and then smash

331
00:17:07,229 --> 00:17:10,799
all the machines and say, "Okay, you,
you didn't follow what we were saying, so

332
00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:12,219
we're gonna smash all the machines here."

333
00:17:12,259 --> 00:17:17,397
And, you know, in context, it's
It's a kind of sabotage that

334
00:17:17,407 --> 00:17:18,577
is part of a labor struggle.

335
00:17:18,657 --> 00:17:18,677
Mm-hmm.

336
00:17:18,687 --> 00:17:19,087
Right?

337
00:17:19,097 --> 00:17:23,307
It's a way to say, "Look, we come
to the negotiating table," right?

338
00:17:23,567 --> 00:17:25,337
We kind of escalate, escalate.

339
00:17:25,347 --> 00:17:26,667
We're not getting any response.

340
00:17:26,667 --> 00:17:29,567
We're not getting any… Uh,
you're not willing to negotiate

341
00:17:29,567 --> 00:17:33,347
with us, so we're gonna keep, uh,
you know, escalating until you do.

342
00:17:33,357 --> 00:17:37,947
And but it's remembered as a kind of
irrational outburst, like the idea that

343
00:17:37,957 --> 00:17:43,277
you could actually stop the progress
of technology with a hammer, right?

344
00:17:43,287 --> 00:17:45,507
That seems… That's
seems ridiculous, right?

345
00:17:45,647 --> 00:17:49,037
The indu- industrial revolution
is a kind of unstoppable force.

346
00:17:49,297 --> 00:17:51,007
How could you stand in its way, right?

347
00:17:51,267 --> 00:17:55,997
And the way that they did this, uh, which
was also, I think, really worth thinking

348
00:17:55,997 --> 00:18:00,707
about at the time, was they, they created
this kind of sort of secret society.

349
00:18:00,837 --> 00:18:00,997
Yeah.

350
00:18:01,067 --> 00:18:01,157
Right?

351
00:18:01,197 --> 00:18:04,237
And that, that was led by this
mythological figure, right?

352
00:18:04,247 --> 00:18:07,147
And that was really kind of
an effective way to organize.

353
00:18:07,177 --> 00:18:10,727
At the time, it was actually
illegal to join anything that

354
00:18:10,727 --> 00:18:11,887
looked like a trade union.

355
00:18:12,007 --> 00:18:12,227
Right.

356
00:18:12,487 --> 00:18:15,977
There was a, there was a law in
England called the Combination

357
00:18:15,977 --> 00:18:17,467
Acts, and you were, you were…

358
00:18:17,517 --> 00:18:21,417
It was punishable by hanging
if you joined a, a combination,

359
00:18:21,467 --> 00:18:23,837
which is, like, basically you
mean any kind of organization.

360
00:18:23,977 --> 00:18:26,577
If you took any kind of
oath of solidarity, you

361
00:18:26,577 --> 00:18:28,807
could be in maximum trouble.

362
00:18:28,857 --> 00:18:31,257
So they did this anyway, and then
they… But they also created,

363
00:18:31,307 --> 00:18:35,747
to keep it secret, this kind of
mythological figure of King Ludd, right?

364
00:18:35,747 --> 00:18:38,637
So very similar kind of, uh,
you know, if you think about

365
00:18:38,637 --> 00:18:40,127
the mythology of Robin Hood.

366
00:18:40,137 --> 00:18:40,977
Yeah, yeah.

367
00:18:40,977 --> 00:18:43,147
You know, this kind of, you know, there's
a, there's a whole tradition there.

368
00:18:43,317 --> 00:18:46,557
And this was, like, super, uh,
interesting and effective because

369
00:18:46,557 --> 00:18:50,077
what it allowed people to do is you
didn't have to have lots of direct

370
00:18:50,107 --> 00:18:55,007
contact for different discrete areas
to kind of plug in to the movement.

371
00:18:55,007 --> 00:18:58,187
You didn't have to have kind
of a top-down coordination.

372
00:18:58,237 --> 00:18:58,477
Yeah.

373
00:18:58,517 --> 00:19:03,457
You could just take up the mantle of
the name, you know, sign King Ludd on

374
00:19:03,457 --> 00:19:07,747
your letter and, and then kind of engage
in these kind of autonomous actions.

375
00:19:07,767 --> 00:19:13,277
And that ended up, um, you know, being
a sort of a really powerful part of

376
00:19:13,277 --> 00:19:16,277
the movement and, and something that
kind of stuck in popular memory.

377
00:19:16,277 --> 00:19:18,887
I think that's one reason
why they're remembered today.

378
00:19:18,887 --> 00:19:22,797
There were, there were actually
other examples, uh, before the

379
00:19:22,797 --> 00:19:26,937
Luddites of textile workers and
weavers resisting new technologies

380
00:19:26,937 --> 00:19:28,167
and even smashing them, right?

381
00:19:28,167 --> 00:19:30,137
In, in, in England, also in France.

382
00:19:30,187 --> 00:19:33,997
Uh, but the Luddites are remembered
because they, uh, because they had a, a

383
00:19:34,007 --> 00:19:37,387
much more developed sort of resistance
but also, I think, because of this sort

384
00:19:37,387 --> 00:19:41,847
of mythology that they attached to it
that was a big part of their organizing.

385
00:19:41,887 --> 00:19:44,997
Um, and so, you know, we've, we've-
So there's no hierarchy whatsoever.

386
00:19:45,177 --> 00:19:48,997
It literally was a grassroots, kind
of like an even, like, organize

387
00:19:48,997 --> 00:19:51,007
as you go kind of, kind of- Yeah.

388
00:19:51,037 --> 00:19:54,927
I mean, if you, if you read kind of more
detailed histories, and I, I do recommend

389
00:19:54,937 --> 00:19:58,257
Brian Merchant's book- Okay … for, for
anyone who's really interested in that.

390
00:19:58,267 --> 00:20:01,387
He's not a historian, but I've
talked to historians, and they're,

391
00:20:01,387 --> 00:20:02,827
like, really impressed by this book.

392
00:20:02,827 --> 00:20:04,417
He did, he did all the archival work.

393
00:20:04,707 --> 00:20:08,627
You know, he identifies people who kind
of emerge as sort of leader figures.

394
00:20:08,657 --> 00:20:14,473
But, um- It's more of a informal kind of
charisma thing that, that they're sort of

395
00:20:14,483 --> 00:20:19,103
driving things forward rather than some
sort of like appointed leader sort of

396
00:20:19,113 --> 00:20:21,673
military hierarchy kind of thing, right?

397
00:20:21,713 --> 00:20:25,583
It had to do more with, you know,
who was willing to do it and who

398
00:20:25,603 --> 00:20:28,523
could connect with other people and
kind of convince them to go along.

399
00:20:28,693 --> 00:20:33,753
But also I think, you know, it's hard
for us maybe to understand this in

400
00:20:33,753 --> 00:20:38,073
a sort of direct way, but this was,
they, the, the Luddites really realized

401
00:20:38,073 --> 00:20:42,093
very early on that this was like an
existential kind of crisis for them.

402
00:20:42,123 --> 00:20:47,683
If they, if their livelihoods went away,
um, they would be destroyed, right?

403
00:20:47,683 --> 00:20:49,063
Their communities would be destroyed.

404
00:20:49,463 --> 00:20:53,403
They, there was no unemployment
insurance, welfare state.

405
00:20:53,823 --> 00:20:58,763
In fact, the economic doctrine was, you
know, Thomas Malthus, who was like, "Yes,

406
00:20:58,783 --> 00:21:02,153
well, populations boom and collapse.
People starve. That's how it goes."

407
00:21:02,193 --> 00:21:05,993
And so that was kind of what was
waiting for, for them if they had

408
00:21:05,993 --> 00:21:10,183
nothing else, uh, going on, if their
industry was transformed in this way.

409
00:21:10,423 --> 00:21:13,803
So it did embolden people
to kind of engage in these

410
00:21:13,803 --> 00:21:15,693
sort of risky actions, right?

411
00:21:15,923 --> 00:21:20,803
Actions that ultimately, although they,
they, they kept it going for longer than a

412
00:21:20,803 --> 00:21:22,613
lot of people thought were, was possible.

413
00:21:22,843 --> 00:21:27,543
Ultimately a lot of them were, um,
arrested, some were executed, some

414
00:21:27,543 --> 00:21:32,073
were killed in, in, uh, when factory
owners started fighting back against

415
00:21:32,073 --> 00:21:36,713
the raids and, uh, many were deported
to various other British colonies.

416
00:21:36,743 --> 00:21:40,023
So as a, though they were, though
they were part of the guild, correct

417
00:21:40,023 --> 00:21:42,333
me if I'm wrong, but they weren't
necessarily unionized, right?

418
00:21:42,473 --> 00:21:42,803
No.

419
00:21:42,853 --> 00:21:44,683
There's a, there's like, I mean, if
you can, uh, you, you mentioned this

420
00:21:44,683 --> 00:21:46,823
in the book and if you don't mind-
Yeah … talk a little bit about that.

421
00:21:47,483 --> 00:21:50,183
What was even legal as far
as organization at that time?

422
00:21:50,183 --> 00:21:50,423
Yeah.

423
00:21:50,423 --> 00:21:52,623
So a guild, it, it
functions very differently.

424
00:21:52,653 --> 00:21:57,553
Guilds are a much older kind of way
of organizing kind of skilled trades,

425
00:21:57,593 --> 00:22:02,263
and you would sort of, if you were
Um, a particularly clever monarch

426
00:22:02,263 --> 00:22:04,053
who wanted to kind of develop your…

427
00:22:04,053 --> 00:22:10,163
You know, it's really interesting because
you, you realize for most of the history

428
00:22:10,163 --> 00:22:13,783
of, you know, kingdoms and things like
that, people, they didn't really have

429
00:22:13,783 --> 00:22:17,443
a good way of even keeping track of
what was going on, let alone having,

430
00:22:17,443 --> 00:22:20,903
like, economic statistics and things
like that that we take for granted now.

431
00:22:21,373 --> 00:22:24,643
Um, but yeah, you would give a charter
to this group of people, or maybe you

432
00:22:24,643 --> 00:22:29,713
would even invite people from another
country who had a skilled trade, who

433
00:22:29,743 --> 00:22:33,053
could do things that, you know, there
were no univers- I mean, there were

434
00:22:33,053 --> 00:22:36,133
universities, but they didn't treat…
They didn't teach these kinds of skills.

435
00:22:36,423 --> 00:22:41,653
Tradespeople controlled who learned,
how they learned, the protocols by

436
00:22:41,653 --> 00:22:46,103
which they would acquire skills, and the
entire economies attached to that, right?

437
00:22:46,443 --> 00:22:49,603
So, um, so that's kind
of how a guild operated.

438
00:22:49,603 --> 00:22:53,063
And, and it was, you know, you were
really part of not just a trade,

439
00:22:53,063 --> 00:22:54,283
but a whole community, right?

440
00:22:54,283 --> 00:22:57,883
So, like, there were entire towns
throughout the Midlands where it was all

441
00:22:57,883 --> 00:23:00,303
people connected to the textile industry.

442
00:23:00,363 --> 00:23:02,723
And so a union is something
a little bit different.

443
00:23:02,763 --> 00:23:07,813
That's people saying, "Okay, we have
a collective interest in opposition

444
00:23:07,813 --> 00:23:13,403
to an employer or to another kind
of, of power." And so it's, you know,

445
00:23:13,403 --> 00:23:16,418
sometimes there are protectionist
elements within trade unions- Mm-hmm

446
00:23:16,418 --> 00:23:17,633
… of course, and skilled laborers.

447
00:23:17,633 --> 00:23:21,283
You know, there's a really interesting
history of organized labor in America

448
00:23:21,283 --> 00:23:25,483
between skilled unions and unskilled
workers, uh, than their unions

449
00:23:25,483 --> 00:23:28,153
and, and, um, the politics thereby.

450
00:23:28,183 --> 00:23:33,503
But it, it functions differently, and
I think what it, what the authorities

451
00:23:33,503 --> 00:23:36,343
in England were concerned about,
they were concerned about, uh,

452
00:23:36,393 --> 00:23:39,803
labor organizing, but they were also
concerned about all sorts of things.

453
00:23:39,803 --> 00:23:43,353
This is an extremely chaotic
time in British history.

454
00:23:43,713 --> 00:23:48,143
You had the war with Napoleon, you
had the kind of, you know, rebellion,

455
00:23:48,203 --> 00:23:53,443
rebellious activity in, in, in, in, in
Scotland, in, in the, in the fringes.

456
00:23:53,763 --> 00:23:55,693
You know, you have a kind
of pretender king, right?

457
00:23:55,913 --> 00:23:59,023
And so they were concerned about all
sorts of conspiracies and anything

458
00:23:59,023 --> 00:24:03,703
that smacked of, you know, sort
of underground organizing, right?

459
00:24:03,703 --> 00:24:08,153
But, but it was definitely a
huge motivation as, you know,

460
00:24:08,183 --> 00:24:10,143
collective action, people.

461
00:24:10,173 --> 00:24:15,283
And people… It was one of the things
they, they expressive forbid was oaths.

462
00:24:15,553 --> 00:24:19,513
If you took an oath, meaning you kind
of swore allegiance to a group, right?

463
00:24:19,773 --> 00:24:23,823
And that could mean, you know, um,
like a verbal agreement, handshake.

464
00:24:23,823 --> 00:24:26,413
"Yes, we're, we're all in this
underground movement together."

465
00:24:26,413 --> 00:24:29,133
It could be signing a petition, it
could be anything like that, right?

466
00:24:29,253 --> 00:24:32,513
And so that was expressive forbidden,
and they were, they were- But you can

467
00:24:32,513 --> 00:24:36,653
see based on, on your earlier description
how they might look at this guild and

468
00:24:36,673 --> 00:24:41,373
this King Lud society, if you will, and
see some of those very actions that they

469
00:24:41,373 --> 00:24:46,095
were claiming From their perspective, if,
if there was, you know, in terms of not

470
00:24:46,095 --> 00:24:50,505
wanting them to unionize, they see some
of those behaviors within this, within

471
00:24:50,505 --> 00:24:52,545
the, within the movement itself, no?

472
00:24:52,595 --> 00:24:54,615
Within, within the, the- The Luddites.

473
00:24:54,615 --> 00:24:58,235
Like in other words, they, they saw this
as even though they didn't call themselves

474
00:24:58,355 --> 00:25:00,705
a union- It, it was- … they saw
these kinds of some of these behaviors.

475
00:25:00,715 --> 00:25:00,735
Yeah.

476
00:25:00,955 --> 00:25:03,365
It was absolutely the thing that
they didn't want to happen, right?

477
00:25:03,365 --> 00:25:03,395
Right.

478
00:25:03,395 --> 00:25:06,095
A guild operates at the
pleasure of the monarch, right?

479
00:25:06,265 --> 00:25:08,905
You can be- you can revoke
their charter, you can try to

480
00:25:08,965 --> 00:25:10,635
renegotiate with it, you know.

481
00:25:11,095 --> 00:25:14,145
It's not you don't have absolute
authority, you never do, but it, it's

482
00:25:14,145 --> 00:25:16,185
a very different kind of relationship.

483
00:25:16,195 --> 00:25:18,885
A combination is a more
autonomous power, right?

484
00:25:18,885 --> 00:25:22,835
And it says, "Look, we- we're powerful
because we're, there are many of us."

485
00:25:22,855 --> 00:25:28,105
And I… And in, in some ways that is
very contrary to this, uh, a sort of

486
00:25:28,145 --> 00:25:32,845
hereditary notion of power and, uh, so
and a, and a more elitist notion of power.

487
00:25:32,855 --> 00:25:38,585
So it's, it, it I think at its core is,
is, uh, you know, more threatening in

488
00:25:38,585 --> 00:25:40,815
that way, a way that a guild is not.

489
00:25:40,825 --> 00:25:46,599
The guild is sort of operating by those
older protocols And in one of the articles

490
00:25:46,599 --> 00:25:49,449
that you, that you had referenced in the
book, we talked about Hobsbawm before.

491
00:25:49,969 --> 00:25:52,249
He, in a, in a sense, did he come back?

492
00:25:52,269 --> 00:25:55,879
Did he essentially try to rescue
the reputation of the Luddites, or

493
00:25:55,879 --> 00:25:58,629
what was his perspective and what,
what did he see their mission as?

494
00:25:58,639 --> 00:25:58,999
Yeah.

495
00:25:59,229 --> 00:26:03,819
Well, Hobsbawm was, you know, a lot
of his early career was in looking

496
00:26:03,819 --> 00:26:11,369
at, um, forms of resistance and
rebellion that were not-- were, were

497
00:26:11,439 --> 00:26:15,749
relatively ignored, particularly by
sort of labor historians and, and so

498
00:26:15,749 --> 00:26:19,779
he looked at, um, you know, bandits
and outlaws, um, in a lot of his early

499
00:26:19,779 --> 00:26:21,389
work, which is also really fascinating.

500
00:26:21,399 --> 00:26:26,799
You, you can, you can never go wrong with
picking up a Hobsbawm book, I'm gonna say.

501
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:30,709
He's a great writer, a great historian,
really always really fascinating and, and

502
00:26:30,719 --> 00:26:32,329
often quite pleas- a pleasure to read.

503
00:26:32,569 --> 00:26:34,569
But he was really-- This
is an early article of his.

504
00:26:34,569 --> 00:26:36,189
He was interested in doing
something similar, right?

505
00:26:36,189 --> 00:26:39,009
Saying, "Look, look, okay, you know,
if you're a labor historian, you're

506
00:26:39,009 --> 00:26:42,629
saying, 'Oh, this is just a kind of,
you know, just an outburst,' right?

507
00:26:42,669 --> 00:26:46,299
'It's irrational.'" And he was saying,
"Look, you know, it might look that

508
00:26:46,299 --> 00:26:49,939
way from our perspective, but from
the perspective there, this was

509
00:26:49,939 --> 00:26:51,769
actually quite a rational struggle."

510
00:26:51,809 --> 00:26:51,899
Right.

511
00:26:51,899 --> 00:26:52,209
Right?

512
00:26:52,209 --> 00:26:54,049
Th-this was an existential struggle.

513
00:26:54,259 --> 00:27:00,039
They also, they didn't have the
ability to, you know, engage in sort

514
00:27:00,039 --> 00:27:04,899
of, you know, negotiations the way,
like, a modern trade union would.

515
00:27:04,909 --> 00:27:06,789
None of that was on the table, right?

516
00:27:07,109 --> 00:27:12,689
They were bar- He has a great term,
uh, co-collective bargaining by riot.

517
00:27:12,689 --> 00:27:12,709
By riot.

518
00:27:12,709 --> 00:27:12,719
Yeah.

519
00:27:12,729 --> 00:27:14,499
Yes, I read that out of your book.

520
00:27:14,499 --> 00:27:18,049
So, um, and so that was a really kind
of interesting innovation, right?

521
00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:23,559
And, and for me, you know, in, in my
kind of training and, and on what I

522
00:27:23,789 --> 00:27:28,949
think is, you know, important, sort
of look for things that don't seem to

523
00:27:28,959 --> 00:27:32,089
be legible as political resistance.

524
00:27:32,129 --> 00:27:35,189
And then if you understand the
context better, you, you see that

525
00:27:35,219 --> 00:27:37,519
actually it totally is the case.

526
00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:40,739
I think the action of the Luddites
is quite easy to see as, as a

527
00:27:40,739 --> 00:27:42,259
labor struggle in that sense.

528
00:27:42,259 --> 00:27:45,189
But it's interesting that when
he's writing the article, very few

529
00:27:45,189 --> 00:27:46,739
people were thinking in those terms.

530
00:27:47,069 --> 00:27:50,089
So he's saying, "Look, there's a,
there's a way you can view it this

531
00:27:50,089 --> 00:27:55,479
way. Uh, and, and in this way, we can,
we can see them not as irrational,

532
00:27:55,479 --> 00:27:57,639
but as actually eminently rational."

533
00:27:57,669 --> 00:28:02,009
Ob-obviously, their struggle, you
know, they, they, they didn't win.

534
00:28:02,019 --> 00:28:04,489
The gig mills and the
stocking frames took over.

535
00:28:04,499 --> 00:28:07,079
The industry was mechanized
and all these things.

536
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:11,509
But, you know, they totally made sense
for them to, to resist it, right?

537
00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:15,149
And I, and I think this is also something
that, you know, in talking about this,

538
00:28:15,159 --> 00:28:19,341
sometimes I get asked, you know, "Well,
but-" But the Luddites lost, you know?

539
00:28:19,391 --> 00:28:23,761
And they say, so, so what are we
doing by, you know, uh, looking

540
00:28:23,761 --> 00:28:26,221
at them with a more favorable eye?

541
00:28:26,391 --> 00:28:29,631
You know, one thing I say is,
you know, you can't always judge,

542
00:28:30,051 --> 00:28:34,001
uh, the, the value of something
by the ultimate outcome, right?

543
00:28:34,011 --> 00:28:36,931
Maybe it was right-- they were
right to resist, and maybe we

544
00:28:36,931 --> 00:28:38,541
can learn something from that.

545
00:28:38,541 --> 00:28:42,941
It didn't ultimately work out, but
that's not to say that there were no,

546
00:28:43,271 --> 00:28:47,041
uh, sort of positive effects, or even
more modestly, that, you know, that

547
00:28:47,061 --> 00:28:52,531
we should sort of… Maybe they should
have just, uh, you know, you know, bowed

548
00:28:52,531 --> 00:28:54,221
their heads and accepted their fate.

549
00:28:54,221 --> 00:28:59,211
I mean, I think, you know, if, if we
were in a similar situation, you know,

550
00:28:59,221 --> 00:29:04,061
we're in a desperate situation, we might
also find ourselves willing to engage

551
00:29:04,061 --> 00:29:06,881
in, in risky or even doomed actions.

552
00:29:06,881 --> 00:29:10,861
You know, it's better to do something
to give it a shot, uh, than to just

553
00:29:10,871 --> 00:29:12,531
quietly accept your fate, right?

554
00:29:13,021 --> 00:29:16,581
So I think that's a main thing he was
kind of interested in, in his, in his

555
00:29:16,611 --> 00:29:19,751
early part of his career particularly,
was saying, "Look, we can look at these

556
00:29:19,801 --> 00:29:23,191
o-other moments of resistance that
seem-- that we don't seem to have the

557
00:29:23,191 --> 00:29:26,381
frameworks to understand," and say,
"Look, if we understand, you know,

558
00:29:26,391 --> 00:29:30,661
what, what capitalist development
was at at that point, um, and then,

559
00:29:30,721 --> 00:29:34,961
you know, actually we can start to
piece together and theorize what was

560
00:29:34,961 --> 00:29:36,671
actually going on in these places."

561
00:29:37,131 --> 00:29:37,311
Yeah.

562
00:29:37,361 --> 00:29:40,741
And, and to your previous point, I will
say that, uh, 'cause I was gonna bring

563
00:29:40,741 --> 00:29:44,591
this up later, but since you mentioned it,
uh, I listened to an interview you did.

564
00:29:44,651 --> 00:29:47,676
It was a couple years ago, two years
ago, on the King Lud Hour, and I

565
00:29:47,676 --> 00:29:48,891
think it was the name of the podcast.

566
00:29:48,931 --> 00:29:51,851
But the interviewer had made that
point to you, said that they lost.

567
00:29:52,241 --> 00:29:57,069
And having read the book at that point,
I said to myself, "Well- I don't know.

568
00:29:57,139 --> 00:30:01,119
He kind of makes, being you, makes,
makes kind of, like, a very convincing

569
00:30:01,119 --> 00:30:03,649
argument without hitting us over the
head that this is more than a bunch

570
00:30:03,649 --> 00:30:05,459
of people and th- this is an idea.

571
00:30:05,469 --> 00:30:05,499
Right?

572
00:30:05,979 --> 00:30:09,169
It was r-right, I mean, even the fact
that they had a mythical character- Yeah

573
00:30:09,489 --> 00:30:11,509
as their figurehead, if you will.

574
00:30:11,549 --> 00:30:11,699
Yeah.

575
00:30:11,789 --> 00:30:13,419
They were, they were pursuing an idea.

576
00:30:13,429 --> 00:30:16,829
And so I'm just saying, when I read
that, I was like, "I think you did

577
00:30:16,829 --> 00:30:18,839
a very effective job." No, no, it
was really, it was really great.

578
00:30:18,859 --> 00:30:21,669
You, you said, like, well, it
depends on what you're looking at.

579
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:24,379
I think Hobsbawm was
making a similar argument.

580
00:30:24,409 --> 00:30:28,569
I, I pulled out that quote that you had
just mentioned as well, is also, um, and

581
00:30:28,569 --> 00:30:29,609
I'd like you to talk to this as well.

582
00:30:29,609 --> 00:30:33,339
He was also saying, uh, in his article,
Breaking the Machines, I think it

583
00:30:33,339 --> 00:30:36,129
was like 1952 or something like this-
Mm-hmm … uh, was saying that, well,

584
00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:40,739
he was also battling his own set of,
of preconceived notions regarding the

585
00:30:40,749 --> 00:30:42,779
fact that mechanization is inevitable.

586
00:30:42,789 --> 00:30:42,959
Yeah.

587
00:30:42,989 --> 00:30:43,969
Resistance is futile.

588
00:30:44,059 --> 00:30:47,569
So I thought that was interesting, too,
and you made a, a really- Absolutely.

589
00:30:47,589 --> 00:30:51,009
I mean, yeah, in many ways, he's
very kind of orthodox Marxist, right?

590
00:30:51,009 --> 00:30:53,549
And, you know, the, the productive
forces will develop and, you

591
00:30:53,549 --> 00:30:54,659
know, we have to deal with that.

592
00:30:55,089 --> 00:30:59,469
Uh, so it's int- you know, when he's
kind of can bracket that a bit and

593
00:30:59,469 --> 00:31:02,389
put on the like, let's be a historian
and try to understand things within

594
00:31:02,389 --> 00:31:06,879
their context, it comes up with a,
a very different kind of account.

595
00:31:07,239 --> 00:31:11,599
Yeah, I think, you know, it's important
and I think, you know, Hobsbawm's a,

596
00:31:11,659 --> 00:31:16,709
is a, is a, is a, is a, a Marxist and,
and anyone who's, you know, takes the

597
00:31:16,709 --> 00:31:20,199
idea that, that political struggle
is an important part of history.

598
00:31:20,719 --> 00:31:24,439
S- you know, it's not a discrete event,
that these are longer trajectories.

599
00:31:24,439 --> 00:31:27,159
And I do, I do think that is
something I tried to sort of

600
00:31:27,159 --> 00:31:29,569
show, um, in the book, right?

601
00:31:29,589 --> 00:31:32,959
That part of what capitalism
does is it's constantly sort of

602
00:31:33,619 --> 00:31:37,829
revolutionizing new technologies, but
it's doing so for particular reasons.

603
00:31:38,289 --> 00:31:44,629
And that means that there is a kind of
thread of, um, you know, innovation if,

604
00:31:45,149 --> 00:31:47,999
if you might call it, uh, if you read
Wired magazine or something like that.

605
00:31:47,999 --> 00:31:49,789
But there's also a thread
of resistance, right?

606
00:31:49,789 --> 00:31:54,849
And if we're in our moment are saying,
you know, we're, we're refusing, we're

607
00:31:54,869 --> 00:31:59,889
resisting, we're opposing, et cetera,
then we are sort of, we're doing

608
00:31:59,889 --> 00:32:03,829
that in our moment, but we're also
part of this longer trajectory that

609
00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:05,699
stretches, you know, to the Luddites.

610
00:32:05,749 --> 00:32:11,649
And so in some ways, I think it
didn't… Did, did they lose?

611
00:32:11,859 --> 00:32:13,419
Maybe it's too early to say.

612
00:32:14,009 --> 00:32:14,229
Yeah.

613
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:17,499
And again, I, you had, you had put a great
quote in your book that I, that I also

614
00:32:17,499 --> 00:32:21,539
wrote down from Limbaugh, and you said
that, uh, "To simply categorize them would

615
00:32:21,539 --> 00:32:24,589
be a mistake," you said, "because this
is a germ of shared endeavor and these

616
00:32:24,589 --> 00:32:26,809
aligned struggles against a common foe."

617
00:32:28,303 --> 00:32:30,813
That's where we'll leave
things for part one now.

618
00:32:31,453 --> 00:32:35,573
In part two, Gavin Mueller turns from
the Luddites themselves to the political

619
00:32:35,583 --> 00:32:37,133
theory that followed in their wake.

620
00:32:37,993 --> 00:32:41,563
Marx's own conflicted view of
machinery, the split between orthodox

621
00:32:41,563 --> 00:32:45,453
and heterodox Marxism, Friedrich
Taylor's theory of workplace control,

622
00:32:45,643 --> 00:32:49,023
the technocracy movement, and finally,
the beginnings of cybernetics.

623
00:32:49,313 --> 00:32:50,873
Looking forward to seeing you soon.

624
00:32:51,033 --> 00:32:51,873
Thanks for listening.

625
00:32:53,488 --> 00:32:56,508
If you enjoyed this episode, you
can find "Notions of Progress" on

626
00:32:56,508 --> 00:32:59,078
YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify.

627
00:32:59,348 --> 00:33:02,638
And all the sources, reading
recommendations, and further context

628
00:33:02,648 --> 00:33:04,598
for every episode are in the show notes.

629
00:33:05,138 --> 00:33:09,208
If you are enjoying this series, liking
the episode on YouTube and signing up for

630
00:33:09,218 --> 00:33:14,428
the newsletter at notionsofprogress.com
really helps more people find these ideas.

631
00:33:14,998 --> 00:33:19,518
For those who wanna go even deeper,
the Curator's Frame blog and Substack

632
00:33:19,548 --> 00:33:23,398
newsletter accompany each episode with
the questions the scholarship leaves open.

633
00:33:24,078 --> 00:33:27,328
I'm Marshall, tracing ideas
of progress from antiquity to

634
00:33:27,328 --> 00:33:31,178
the age of AI and leaving the
debates open for you to consider.

635
00:33:31,448 --> 00:33:32,358
Until next time