Theorizing the Machine: Gavin Mueller on Marxism, Taylorism, and Cybernetics Interview pt 2 of 3

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Hi, welcome to Notions of Progress.

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Just a quick note before we pick back up.

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For those watching on YouTube,
this episode is audio only,

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same as it was in part one.

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Unfortunately, the video from our
conversation with Gavin Mueller didn't

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survive a technical glitch during
recording, but the audio held up well, and

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so here's what we have after we left off

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In part one of this conversation,
Gavin Mueller traced the Luddites

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back to their roots in the guild
economy of the English Midlands.

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These were skilled textile workers
who organized under the mythical

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banner of King Lud to resist the
machines that threatened their

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wages, their working conditions,
and the quality of their craft.

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Professor Mueller pointed to the
historian Eric Hobsbawm, who reframed

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the Luddites decades later, not as an
irrational outburst against progress,

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but as a rational labor struggle.

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From there, the conversation turned.

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Mueller sets the Luddites aside for a
while to trace something even broader: how

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the politics of technology got theorized
in the century that followed, from Karl

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Marx's own conflicted view of machinery
through the splits inside the socialist

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movement to Taylorism to the T-Technocracy
movement and the birth of cybernetics.

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Thanks for sticking with us.

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Sit back and enjoy the show

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I think this is a good time
to kind of transition to talk

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about Marxism in this sense.

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Okay.

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Because you talk about, if, if that's
okay- Sure … now to e- even to go

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back to the intro of your book, I
remember- Mm-hmm … you wrote something

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in there about p- your personal
mission regarding wanting to… And

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if you would just talk a little bit
about that, not that you're- Yeah

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carrying the flag, so to speak- No, no
… but kind of like what your objectives

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were regarding the Luddites and Marxism,
and to make that- Yeah … connection.

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So I think my wager here, I'll, I'll
put my cards on the table as a- Yeah

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… Marxist- Yeah … socialist, is that,
you know, I, I I'm interested in more

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people coming to a kind of critical
understanding of capitalism- Mm-hmm

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and, and engaging in kind of socialist
politics and using Marxism to sort

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of, uh, help understand their world
and, and, and what they should do.

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And I think that, um, there are many
people in the world, probably more

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people in the world feel this way
than are Marxists, that have some

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sort of misgivings about technology or
reluctance or, you know, something new

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comes along and, and, and it changes
things in ways they don't like, right?

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There's, there's, there's long been this
in, in, in the history of capitalism.

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It's not always been tied very
much at all to, to Marxism and

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to radical politics, right?

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And so these are, you
know, Luddites, right?

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You know, people, "I don't like my
phone," or, "I don't like AI," or,

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you know, "I don't like the chemicals
in my food," or any, any of these

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th- these kinds of things, right?

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That have a sort of, uh, you
know, kind of implicit sort of

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misgivings about technology.

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My idea was, okay, so, so that's
a pretty widely held belief.

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So if you are wanting to get
more people to have a critical

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understanding of capitalism, you say,
"Look, a lot of your problems with

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technology are related to the fact
that these are technologies developed

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according to capitalist imperatives.

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So your problems with technology are
also problems that you potentially have

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with capitalism." And then from the
other direction, see a lot of people…

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So that, you know, brings potentially
more people to kind of a critical

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understanding of, of capitalism, right?

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The, uh, the… It's a basic, kind of
a basic principle of saying, "I'm not

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gonna come in and tell you, 'Here's
all the problems in the world.'"

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I'm gonna say, "What are your problems?"
You know, did you know, you know, can

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you make these… You can make these
connections, or you can kind of, um, if

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you understand these things in a wider
historical sense, then, then maybe you

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realize it's not just your phone you
have a problem with, but, but it's an

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entire kind of socioeconomic system.

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And then from the other direction, you
know, um, I was interested in, in Marxists

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having a more critical understanding of
technology because I think that technology

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is, you know, a problem for people who
are developing social movements, who

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are trying to enact radical change,
who are engaged in all sorts of kind

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of activities around changing society.

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They need to have an understanding
of technology, and they need to kind

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of… Not just a, a, an understanding
of it, but they need to kind of bring

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it in and bring it into their kind
of critical focus the same way they

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would other sort of important issues.

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So, and, and I think that goes
back to something earlier I said

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about starting a conversation.

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One, one way I think about starting a
conversation is, is actually bringing

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different conversations together.

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So bringing people who have this kind
of critical, uh, sense of technology

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together with people who have a
critical understanding of capitalism.

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In many ways, those are separate
conversations, and one of the things I

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do in my book is show, show how they are
separate, but how they come, have come

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together at various points in time through
various different types of figures.

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And then think about, you know, how
that might look in our current moment.

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Um, so yeah, bringing… The way
I put it in the, in the intro is,

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you know, turn, turn Marxists into
Luddites and Luddites into Marxists.

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Right.

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No, and well… And I would say also
going through your book, what I felt,

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and I, and this is me projecting onto
it as a reader, this is also I think a

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very interesting examination of Marxism.

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And I'd like to talk about that too,
because I think you, you go through

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some of the various flavors, and there
are different people that you point

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to as… That, that I, it sounds from
your, your words that you're more

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sympathetic to their ideas versus others.

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And I think I'd like to talk
t- a little bit about that.

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Let, and let's start
with the person himself.

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Let's start with Marx himself.

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Okay.

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Because, well, let me say this.

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I, uh… How would you, based on,
well, you know, what I've read in

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the book, how would you categorize
Marx's, you know, perspective

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regarding technology and automation?

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Yeah.

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It's, that's unclear.

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I- Yeah.

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It's- … to begin with … if you, if
you read like a summary, right, of like

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what are Mar- what did Marx believe and
what did he say about these things, and

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what's historical materialism, right?

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You know, like you get this like, well,
there were stages of development, right?

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And there was feudalism, and, you know,
then capitalism started emerging, and

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then what that did was it dismantled
all these feudal relations, right?

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And then it's gonna keep developing,
and then you'll get socialism, right?

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And Marx was very clear throughout his
life that people who wanted to kind of

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attach to or preserve some sort of older
way, that was, that was reactionary.

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It wasn't gonna, it wasn't gonna
work, and it was bad to try, right?

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But then if you actually read Capital
where the parts where he's talking about

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like the introduction of new machines, the
language is just like, you know, so dark.

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It's like, you know, it's like being
in, you know… These people are

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trapped and degraded and crushed and
become appendages of the machine.

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So it's interesting to me.

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I mean, you know, I, I think there
are places where he's very clear.

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Like, okay, there's poten- you know,
technology develops, and that does create

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some interesting potentials, right?

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He was very… He, one thing that he
was trying to do, and one thing that

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I think makes his work really complex
is He was trying to graph sort of a, a

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motion or a trajectory of change that
was of social change and saying you have

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to kind of… You can't just start from,
like, a, a set thing that you wanna do.

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You have to understand this
trajectory of change and kind of

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intervene in what's unfolding, right?

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And that's actually why he thought
the proletariat was so important.

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He's like, "Wow, this is like a very
new class. They're not wedded to the

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old ways. They are a product of this new
situation, and th- you know, what they

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do is going to shape history," right?

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So, so there's absolutely, I would say,
uh… And so this gets taken to say,

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"Okay, well, you need to have-- let
capitalist technology develop to have

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a kind of base for socialism," right?

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Whether that's because you need a certain
level of productivity, otherwise you

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have, you know, socialism but everyone
starves, or whether that's because

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that development creates a large
enough sort of proletariat that, you

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know, you can take political power.

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There's different ways that people have
justified it based on things that Marx or

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Engels or other people have said, right?

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But then there's another part of Marx
that's, like, definitely seems to

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recognize that from kind of experiential
level, like, these new machines

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are just awful to work with, right?

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And more than that,
there's a politics there.

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There's a few moments.

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He doesn't, he doesn't spend a
lot of time really investigating

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this question, um, but he, he
does remark at, at a few points.

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He's like, "You know, the, the reason
these technologies emerge the way

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they do is they are really set up to
prevent workers from coming together

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the way they had been coming together."

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So you can create these new machines
that separate workers or require

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fewer workers, so that way you have
your, your sort of… It's a, it's a

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kind of weapon of class struggle on
behalf of, of, of capitalists, right?

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If you can kind of fragment the workforce
or discipline them in such a way that they

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are not able to have power on the shop
floor, they're not able to develop a kind

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of social power, that's a big advantage.

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And he suggests that a few points,
but doesn't really elaborate on that.

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So from, from my s- perspective, I
see a lot of ambivalence in Marx.

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I think that the kind of cliché Marx
and, and indeed the Marx that gets

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picked up by the most influential- Yeah.

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Yes … um, parts of, of the, the
socialist movement, you know Is

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this kind of, uh, technologically
determinist Marx, right?

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In fact, if you… I think a, a lot of
times when you, when people are introduced

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to Marx in, like, a sociology class, he's
e- he's even sa- That's like, "Oh, he was

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a technological determinist, and that's
actually the problem with him." I think

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when you dig in and see what he's, what
he's doing and what he's reading, and you

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have kind of a, a little bit more detailed
perspective, it, it's hard to say that

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he's purely a technological determinist.

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I would say he's not a
technological determinist.

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I think d- he does have some
optimism about technology.

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He was really into technology, right?

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He was… A lot of new technology was
happening during his life, and he was

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really trying to keep track of that stuff.

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So he, you know, he would do diagrams of
steam engines and things like that, right?

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You know, he was always talking to
Engels, who was working in a factory.

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He was a, he was a… He was managing it.

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Um, he wasn't operating machines.

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But they had a lot of… He was
like, "I need to… I wanna know more

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about what's going on there," right?

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So he was super curious about this stuff.

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But I think that when it comes
to how, w- the politics of

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that, you know, he, he, he…

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It was a mixed bag, and I think
some things were not super, super

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developed, right, in, in his
thinking around those things.

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So I think the, the kind of reputation
that he has as a sort of technological

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determinist is oversimplified.

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Now, the people that come along
after his influence- Yeah, and I

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wanna, and I wanna get to that.

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I actually just wanna take one
second to just kind of do, like,

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a brief… Because I think that
bridge is very interesting, right?

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Yeah.

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In the, in the sense, and, you know,
again, based on your book, you know,

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Hobsbawm makes the case, as, as you so
eloquently laid out, that, well, you're

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putting this label onto the Luddites.

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They're as anti-technology.

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Actually… And he makes a strong
case to say no, they were an- they

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were anti certain uses of technology,
but actually they embraced technology

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when it helped them in the shop.

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That was his argument.

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Yeah.

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So he's dispelling the myth of the
Luddites as being anti-technologists.

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But let's just take it on
its face value that these

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preconceived notions existed- Sure

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during that time, and I think Hobsbawm
makes that, makes that argument.

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And then we get to this place
where, as you were talking

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about Marx himself, not Marxism.

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The Marx of Marx- Mm-hmm … is
talking, has this ambivalence,

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is ta- has these dark moments in
capital talking about the machines.

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And then now we're going to
the next phase, and now…

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But yet we're looking at the
same time, and you, and you

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raise this as well in your book.

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You start looking at things like
scientific socialism- Mm … and angles.

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And if, if you're reading this
from the outside, had you not had

216
00:11:39,635 --> 00:11:42,675
somebody who was not following this
debate or followed your book closely,

217
00:11:42,805 --> 00:11:44,235
it seems like a weird disconnect.

218
00:11:44,645 --> 00:11:49,795
It seems like one person, it… One,
one set of ideas is actually embracing

219
00:11:49,795 --> 00:11:52,935
technology as a, as a specific tool.

220
00:11:53,235 --> 00:11:56,035
Like, like one of the arguments that
was made there was the idea that

221
00:11:56,345 --> 00:12:00,185
certain people thought that technology
could be used against the bosses.

222
00:12:00,215 --> 00:12:00,235
Mm-hmm.

223
00:12:00,435 --> 00:12:01,005
Against.

224
00:12:01,015 --> 00:12:03,865
So there was a p- Is that a, a fair
statement as well, that there was

225
00:12:03,865 --> 00:12:06,875
a, a camp of p- folks who said,
"Well, no, no, actually this could,

226
00:12:06,885 --> 00:12:07,945
this could really help us out"?

227
00:12:08,569 --> 00:12:09,539
To sure.

228
00:12:09,589 --> 00:12:13,259
I mean, you know, you could, yeah,
like the, the, that the, that, that

229
00:12:13,309 --> 00:12:17,649
there was a, a sense, particularly the
kind of generation of Marxists after,

230
00:12:17,699 --> 00:12:23,119
after Marx and Engels that like history
had, um, a course and it was going in

231
00:12:23,119 --> 00:12:25,459
a way that was working out for them.

232
00:12:25,899 --> 00:12:30,089
Uh, and there were reasons, you know,
that was also a rational thing to think.

233
00:12:30,129 --> 00:12:35,857
In, uh, Germany, the The, the, the
working class was growing bigger.

234
00:12:36,067 --> 00:12:38,057
Marxists were very influential.

235
00:12:38,277 --> 00:12:39,297
They were unionizing.

236
00:12:39,297 --> 00:12:43,357
They were creating not just unions, but
a, like a whole kind of parallel society,

237
00:12:43,357 --> 00:12:49,027
right, of people who were, uh, tightly
organized, had a critical understanding of

238
00:12:49,027 --> 00:12:54,887
capitalism, had… Were invested in sort
of a future where workers had power, and

239
00:12:54,937 --> 00:12:56,827
they were like, "Yeah, we're almost…

240
00:12:56,857 --> 00:12:59,557
We're getting gr- bigger and bigger
and, and eventually, we'll just

241
00:12:59,567 --> 00:13:03,047
have the numbers, and we won't
have to do… We won't even have

242
00:13:03,047 --> 00:13:04,417
to do like a violent revolution.

243
00:13:04,417 --> 00:13:10,457
We can just use a lot of the political
processes that the bourgeoisie use and,

244
00:13:10,497 --> 00:13:11,957
and, and it will make it work for us.

245
00:13:11,957 --> 00:13:13,957
Maybe we'll have to have a general
strike or something like that."

246
00:13:13,997 --> 00:13:18,027
So, you know, really, I… You know,
again, this is, I think, one of those

247
00:13:18,037 --> 00:13:21,437
things when you read history, it's like
really hard to summon, you know, how

248
00:13:21,457 --> 00:13:23,187
people actually kind of felt, right?

249
00:13:23,187 --> 00:13:25,967
But there was a real sense that, that,
you know, history was on their side.

250
00:13:25,967 --> 00:13:28,857
Progress was also the progress
of the workers' movement.

251
00:13:29,837 --> 00:13:34,747
And so but I think that is a little
bit different from, from Marx

252
00:13:34,747 --> 00:13:37,297
and, and I think there's other
ways to think about it, right?

253
00:13:37,587 --> 00:13:41,757
So, um, for me, I think, and, and I
think this is also a v- a really valuable

254
00:13:41,757 --> 00:13:43,777
perspective from, from our current moment.

255
00:13:44,227 --> 00:13:49,157
You know, for Marx, I think what he was
interested in was historical developments

256
00:13:49,157 --> 00:13:55,517
that pushed people into more kind of
antagonistic mass situations, right?

257
00:13:55,557 --> 00:13:59,617
Situations where people were like,
"We are coming together to, to

258
00:13:59,927 --> 00:14:01,667
create radical change," right?

259
00:14:01,717 --> 00:14:05,667
And at a certain point, I think
you can see that, that maybe

260
00:14:05,797 --> 00:14:09,657
there are ways that technology
develops that prevents that, right?

261
00:14:09,707 --> 00:14:12,297
That there's no sort of
inevitability about the way

262
00:14:12,297 --> 00:14:16,717
technology develops that brings
people into this revolutionary mass.

263
00:14:16,717 --> 00:14:20,637
In fact, actually, one thing that you
see shortly after, so, you know, the,

264
00:14:21,007 --> 00:14:24,147
the, the, the SPD in Germany, you
know, the… Everything's going really

265
00:14:24,147 --> 00:14:27,317
well for them, and then, you know,
World War I happens and, you know, the

266
00:14:27,317 --> 00:14:29,907
international falls apart, and then
there's a Russian revolution and the

267
00:14:29,907 --> 00:14:32,647
German revolution kind of hesitates
and it doesn't work out anyway.

268
00:14:32,797 --> 00:14:37,687
But shortly after that, you know,
you see the, the capital realizes,

269
00:14:38,057 --> 00:14:42,027
you know, one problem we're having
is we have these massive factories.

270
00:14:42,367 --> 00:14:45,557
Uh, they're bringing in lots and lots of
workers under one roof, and then those

271
00:14:45,557 --> 00:14:50,727
workers kind of re-- you know, it's very
apparent just by the architecture that

272
00:14:50,737 --> 00:14:55,987
you have a, a, a, a, a class antagonism
here of people who are standing over

273
00:14:55,987 --> 00:14:59,547
and watching everyone who's doing the
work and then, and disciplining them and

274
00:14:59,547 --> 00:15:01,307
cutting their pay, et cetera, et cetera.

275
00:15:01,307 --> 00:15:02,507
And there's a power difference there.

276
00:15:02,717 --> 00:15:07,217
But there's so many more of them,
and it becomes so clear, right,

277
00:15:07,227 --> 00:15:09,867
that like wow, okay, the… all
these people come together and

278
00:15:09,917 --> 00:15:11,477
have, have real kind of leverage.

279
00:15:11,737 --> 00:15:12,747
So what can you do?

280
00:15:12,747 --> 00:15:15,467
Well, we gotta stop making
these massive factories.

281
00:15:15,647 --> 00:15:18,317
Let's, let's separate them, right?

282
00:15:18,327 --> 00:15:20,637
That's one thing that happens
in the auto industry, right?

283
00:15:20,657 --> 00:15:24,849
And carries forth until today,
where you build the parts in one

284
00:15:24,849 --> 00:15:27,839
place and the other parts in another
place, often in another country.

285
00:15:28,089 --> 00:15:29,579
You finish it in another place.

286
00:15:29,589 --> 00:15:33,309
You s- basically take a massive
factory and scatter it, so

287
00:15:33,309 --> 00:15:35,489
you have smaller workforces.

288
00:15:35,529 --> 00:15:39,579
Maybe you have… You separate
different kind of skill sets, right?

289
00:15:39,619 --> 00:15:43,809
So if one group is getting kind of testy,
it doesn't affect the other people.

290
00:15:44,019 --> 00:15:47,699
And in that way, you sort of
use technological restructuring

291
00:15:47,699 --> 00:15:51,029
of the production process to
prevent mass struggle, right?

292
00:15:51,229 --> 00:15:53,919
And to me, that is, that's something
that Marx would've been like,

293
00:15:53,919 --> 00:15:56,849
"No, this is, this is not a good
development of technology," right?

294
00:15:56,849 --> 00:16:01,759
This is, this is actually a- an effective
way of, of tamping down class struggle.

295
00:16:02,049 --> 00:16:04,539
And, and I, and I absolutely wanna go
into that 'cause you- Yeah … you have

296
00:16:04,809 --> 00:16:08,443
some fascinating sort of Discourse on
Taylorism, and I have that as part of it.

297
00:16:08,643 --> 00:16:11,633
I wanna just, actually, if you just take
two minutes, I wanna finish that bridge.

298
00:16:11,693 --> 00:16:11,833
Oh, sure.

299
00:16:11,833 --> 00:16:12,833
'Cause this is… No, no, no.

300
00:16:12,893 --> 00:16:16,683
This, this is where I'm having a hard
time trying to understand how we got

301
00:16:16,703 --> 00:16:21,333
from Marx and where the factions and…
Not so much for more of the details

302
00:16:21,343 --> 00:16:24,493
about who was who, but I would like
to understand where those factions…

303
00:16:24,713 --> 00:16:28,413
Like, what, what splintered from that
original thinking, you know, with the

304
00:16:28,413 --> 00:16:29,763
Second International, for example- Yeah

305
00:16:29,763 --> 00:16:32,163
that you raise in the book, and kind
of where, where were the battle lines

306
00:16:32,163 --> 00:16:32,663
drawn- Yeah … if you don't mind.

307
00:16:32,663 --> 00:16:35,593
I think, I think, you know, there
is a- I mean, is it fair for me to

308
00:16:35,593 --> 00:16:38,163
say that, that it seemed like there
was a, an internal schism there?

309
00:16:38,163 --> 00:16:40,033
'Cause- I don't know if it was a schism.

310
00:16:40,033 --> 00:16:44,803
I mean, I… What I would characterize
it as is you have a sort of, you know,

311
00:16:44,803 --> 00:16:48,443
for lack of a better word, a kind of
mainstream version of Marxism that

312
00:16:48,443 --> 00:16:51,833
is, like, the, the, the main organs
of the workers' movement, right?

313
00:16:51,833 --> 00:16:53,113
The SPD in Germany.

314
00:16:53,213 --> 00:16:56,543
Later on, you know, the, the
Bolsheviks in the Soviet Union.

315
00:16:56,743 --> 00:17:00,073
You know, if you're a Marxist or you're
a socialist, you know, 90% of them

316
00:17:00,073 --> 00:17:03,083
are, you're probably gonna look to
those kinds of things depending on the

317
00:17:03,093 --> 00:17:04,313
time period you're living in, right?

318
00:17:04,313 --> 00:17:05,463
Because that's what it means.

319
00:17:05,763 --> 00:17:08,823
That's where it seems to be the
biggest and most successful, right?

320
00:17:08,823 --> 00:17:12,383
And in those places, there was a real
sense that Marxism is this kind of

321
00:17:12,383 --> 00:17:17,993
science of history that, you know, you're
progressing through levels, that you

322
00:17:17,993 --> 00:17:22,973
are… And that, you know, there's a
sort of inevitability to, to socialism.

323
00:17:23,143 --> 00:17:25,293
And, you know, that can be
very inspiring for people.

324
00:17:25,293 --> 00:17:26,883
And history is on our side.

325
00:17:27,073 --> 00:17:29,903
We're justified in what we're
doing because it's gonna work out.

326
00:17:29,913 --> 00:17:32,933
You know, it's hard for us right
now, but for maybe for our kids and

327
00:17:32,933 --> 00:17:34,293
our grandkids, it's gonna be better.

328
00:17:34,333 --> 00:17:38,483
Um, you know, that really motivates
people to, to, to engage in, in

329
00:17:38,483 --> 00:17:39,993
struggles, to sacrifice themselves, right?

330
00:17:40,303 --> 00:17:43,163
And I think, I wouldn't call it a
schism, but I think there's another…

331
00:17:43,193 --> 00:17:46,283
There are, there are other currents
of Marxism, um, in- And by the way,

332
00:17:46,283 --> 00:17:48,743
would it be fair to say that current
is about historical materialism?

333
00:17:48,743 --> 00:17:50,453
Is that… That's a, a different type.

334
00:17:50,493 --> 00:17:53,753
Uh, one current, e- an economic
current, kind of a cultural current

335
00:17:53,953 --> 00:17:57,043
versus the… I mean, the two
seem at, at points to converge,

336
00:17:57,043 --> 00:17:58,303
but also seem se- separate- Yeah.

337
00:17:58,303 --> 00:18:01,113
I mean, this is… It's like, I
would say, a simplified version of,

338
00:18:01,153 --> 00:18:03,053
of historical materialism, right?

339
00:18:03,073 --> 00:18:07,643
Is… And, and definitely the one that
gets codified in, in, in Germany and,

340
00:18:07,653 --> 00:18:09,563
and in, then in Soviet Union, right?

341
00:18:09,563 --> 00:18:11,173
In a v- quite similar ways, right?

342
00:18:11,173 --> 00:18:13,993
The, the, the Bolsheviks who have a
revolution in Russia, you know, they,

343
00:18:14,003 --> 00:18:17,623
they de- end up denouncing Karl Kautsky
and a whole bunch of the German Marxists

344
00:18:17,633 --> 00:18:20,513
because, you know, they, they have
a disagreement about the revolution.

345
00:18:20,723 --> 00:18:24,203
But up until that point, they,
they were absolutely looking at

346
00:18:24,203 --> 00:18:25,353
Karl Kautsky and the Germans.

347
00:18:25,473 --> 00:18:28,343
Th- those were, like, their
theoretical… Uh, that's how

348
00:18:28,343 --> 00:18:29,733
they understood everything, right?

349
00:18:29,733 --> 00:18:32,793
They were, they were totally on
board with that form of analysis.

350
00:18:33,073 --> 00:18:36,693
And I would say there is a Um, what
I would call maybe a heterodox.

351
00:18:36,703 --> 00:18:38,113
That's orthodox Marxism.

352
00:18:38,113 --> 00:18:40,403
There's a heterodox strands of Marxism.

353
00:18:40,403 --> 00:18:42,333
It's not like one kind of narrative.

354
00:18:42,513 --> 00:18:42,533
Yeah.

355
00:18:42,993 --> 00:18:48,693
Uh, but it's, uh, people who, m- for
whatever reason, dissented with, from

356
00:18:48,693 --> 00:18:52,843
this kind of simple, simplified version
of history, the simplified notion of

357
00:18:52,843 --> 00:18:56,353
progress, or thought there's something
else more complicated going here.

358
00:18:56,763 --> 00:19:03,993
And I think, you know, uh, an early one
is William Morris, uh, who is an English

359
00:19:03,993 --> 00:19:09,973
designer and, but also is… He reads
the French translation of Capital in,

360
00:19:09,983 --> 00:19:12,413
like, the 1890s, so really early on.

361
00:19:12,423 --> 00:19:15,773
Like, no one, no one else in
England's reading Marx, right?

362
00:19:15,813 --> 00:19:18,333
Karl Marx is not, like, that
big a deal in that world.

363
00:19:18,333 --> 00:19:22,543
But is reading him and, but coming to
very different conclusions, in part based

364
00:19:22,543 --> 00:19:24,453
on his own kind of perspectives, right?

365
00:19:24,453 --> 00:19:28,693
But in part because he's really engaging
with the text, and he's not engaging with

366
00:19:28,693 --> 00:19:33,043
the kind of ar-already sort of set out
program that you're signing on to, right?

367
00:19:33,163 --> 00:19:35,463
It's kind of starting
from first principles.

368
00:19:35,463 --> 00:19:38,743
And there's other people that
I think do that kind of thing.

369
00:19:38,743 --> 00:19:43,073
So I think there's this heterodox
tradition that's more, that, that is

370
00:19:43,083 --> 00:19:47,863
more technologically critical, that
is also a little more focused on

371
00:19:47,873 --> 00:19:50,453
working class autonomy and militancy.

372
00:19:50,843 --> 00:19:53,903
And in many cases, I don't
think William Morris is the best

373
00:19:53,903 --> 00:19:56,273
example of this, although he did
do quite a lot of organizing.

374
00:19:56,273 --> 00:20:01,603
But is often, um, a bit more connected
with, uh, grassroots and shop floor

375
00:20:01,603 --> 00:20:06,373
struggles than sort of the, the people
who are, you know, party chiefs who are

376
00:20:06,373 --> 00:20:10,503
kind of organizing at a much more higher
level, abstract level with this kind of,

377
00:20:10,773 --> 00:20:13,653
you know, bright future in mind, right?

378
00:20:13,703 --> 00:20:17,443
The people who are, you know, in
the factories and engaging in the

379
00:20:17,443 --> 00:20:21,913
struggles and seeing what are people…
What, what is, what kind of things

380
00:20:21,913 --> 00:20:26,787
are, are Concerning the workers and
what's pr- provoking them are often

381
00:20:26,797 --> 00:20:30,627
much more critical of technology than
the people who are kind of working

382
00:20:30,627 --> 00:20:34,117
out a larger plan of how do we
construct socialism on a mass scale.

383
00:20:34,477 --> 00:20:38,247
And to me, that's… We need that kind of
bottom-up perspective- Right … I think

384
00:20:38,257 --> 00:20:40,607
much more now than, than the top-down.

385
00:20:40,617 --> 00:20:43,947
I mean, the top-down can also be very
interesting, but I think the bottom-up

386
00:20:43,957 --> 00:20:49,307
is where real insights were developed,
but often ignored because they didn't

387
00:20:49,307 --> 00:20:51,567
kind of fit into this larger plan.

388
00:20:51,947 --> 00:20:56,237
We're in a moment now where the, those
larger plans, you know, didn't work out.

389
00:20:56,247 --> 00:20:59,707
So I think we kind of have to…
That's where we have to start, is

390
00:20:59,707 --> 00:21:02,367
with, with where people are and
what they're fighting against.

391
00:21:02,367 --> 00:21:07,007
And if you, you know, get down and dirty
with that and, and, and see what, what's

392
00:21:07,007 --> 00:21:10,197
bothering people and what's motivating
them, what's radicalizing them, you

393
00:21:10,197 --> 00:21:14,187
know, technology… Come to a very
different perspective on, on technology

394
00:21:14,187 --> 00:21:17,547
than it's something that's creating
the conditions for a better future.

395
00:21:17,777 --> 00:21:21,227
And, and I, I, and I, again, I wanna
go back 'cause it's such an important

396
00:21:21,227 --> 00:21:24,617
part of your book into… We're gonna
call this post- the post-war phase.

397
00:21:24,767 --> 00:21:28,217
Mm. Um, but just to put up one final
point on, on previous discussion, are

398
00:21:28,217 --> 00:21:30,827
those intervening parties that, that
you talked about, uh, how that…

399
00:21:30,857 --> 00:21:33,517
Was that like when you mentioned
Bernstein or the Fabian Society?

400
00:21:33,727 --> 00:21:38,167
Are these those kinds of m- kind of
more larger meta- meta forces that

401
00:21:38,167 --> 00:21:40,527
were- Those- … positioned and- Yeah.

402
00:21:40,547 --> 00:21:44,177
They… I mean, those are… There's
also competing… So this is, you know,

403
00:21:44,187 --> 00:21:48,807
there's, there… Marxism is really only
one kind of version of socialism, right?

404
00:21:48,807 --> 00:21:52,577
There's, uh, many other kinds of socialism
that, you know, maybe borrow a little

405
00:21:52,577 --> 00:21:56,387
bit from Marx or maybe completely
disavow it or even predate Marx, right?

406
00:21:56,397 --> 00:21:58,767
So, like Fabians were…
They predate Marx.

407
00:21:58,767 --> 00:21:59,687
They're not Marxist.

408
00:21:59,707 --> 00:22:02,107
Uh, they're way more
influential in the UK.

409
00:22:02,137 --> 00:22:03,967
There's still a Fabian society today.

410
00:22:03,967 --> 00:22:07,287
A lot of the Labor Party big wigs
are k- you know, were in that

411
00:22:07,287 --> 00:22:08,477
or, you know, came through that.

412
00:22:08,517 --> 00:22:12,947
Um, and it's a very different notion of
what socialism would be, and it's much

413
00:22:12,947 --> 00:22:16,717
more about, oh yeah, you come up with
a really nice plan, and you kind of

414
00:22:16,837 --> 00:22:18,867
bring it forward and say, "Look at this.

415
00:22:19,157 --> 00:22:21,797
Wouldn't this be a better way to do
things?" And everyone sort of agrees.

416
00:22:22,147 --> 00:22:24,737
You know, I mean, that's a very
simplified version, but it's a, it's,

417
00:22:24,747 --> 00:22:29,839
it's a, it's- Um, a version of socialism
that doesn't have the emphasis on sort

418
00:22:29,839 --> 00:22:33,609
of class antagonism, class struggle-
Right … that, that Marx has.

419
00:22:33,639 --> 00:22:37,709
And so to me, you know, my opinion
that, that, that, you know, focusing

420
00:22:37,709 --> 00:22:41,509
on class struggle as a kind of motor
f- motor force rather than, you know,

421
00:22:41,509 --> 00:22:44,409
great ideas is, uh, more relevant.

422
00:22:44,669 --> 00:22:46,559
You know, to me, that just holds true.

423
00:22:47,219 --> 00:22:51,899
Um, and, and I think that's where I like
to start when I wanna think about radical

424
00:22:51,899 --> 00:22:54,599
change, is it's great to have plans.

425
00:22:54,599 --> 00:23:00,129
I know plenty of people, you know,
who are doing really interesting

426
00:23:00,149 --> 00:23:03,579
research on what would a planned
economy look like at this point, or

427
00:23:03,599 --> 00:23:09,079
could we use digital technologies
to create a post-capitalist society?

428
00:23:09,079 --> 00:23:11,849
And I, I'm think that stuff
is really interesting and,

429
00:23:11,859 --> 00:23:13,289
and, and maybe even useful.

430
00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:18,099
But I also think if we don't have
sufficient antagonism, if we don't… if

431
00:23:18,099 --> 00:23:23,739
we're not able to develop, um, a mass base
that wants radical change, then our plans

432
00:23:23,739 --> 00:23:28,689
aren't gonna be worth very much because
the way things work now, um, is quite

433
00:23:28,689 --> 00:23:30,839
good for a very small amount of people.

434
00:23:31,159 --> 00:23:34,979
Uh, and if we can't do anything
to shake out of that, uh, out of

435
00:23:34,999 --> 00:23:39,069
this kind of social structure to
challenge it, then we won't have,

436
00:23:39,159 --> 00:23:43,989
you know, beautiful algorithmic
post-capitalism, any of that stuff.

437
00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:47,429
And I, like, I certainly wanna
close with not… Uh, if we

438
00:23:47,429 --> 00:23:48,369
still have a little bit of time.

439
00:23:48,379 --> 00:23:48,399
Mm-hmm.

440
00:23:48,619 --> 00:23:52,579
Certainly I, I'd like to now discuss
that, that, that middle period where

441
00:23:52,579 --> 00:23:53,949
we talked about Taylorism- Sure

442
00:23:53,949 --> 00:23:54,579
I'm gonna call it, right?

443
00:23:54,579 --> 00:23:57,979
So talk a little bit about… And
because I, in the book you, you, you

444
00:23:57,979 --> 00:24:01,439
discuss Taylorism more as a system
of control, I think- Mm-hmm … was

445
00:24:01,439 --> 00:24:02,789
the… And, and talk about that.

446
00:24:02,789 --> 00:24:06,569
And so now it's not on- The, the
machine's become a vehicle by which it's

447
00:24:06,569 --> 00:24:09,519
not only economic, if that's a, a fair
characterization of what you're saying.

448
00:24:09,529 --> 00:24:09,549
Yeah.

449
00:24:09,699 --> 00:24:11,329
You're saying it's
something even beyond that.

450
00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:12,099
Yeah.

451
00:24:12,099 --> 00:24:15,209
Is that, is that a, a change in
kind of like that positioning of

452
00:24:15,209 --> 00:24:17,779
technology against the worker,
or is that an evolution, or is it

453
00:24:17,979 --> 00:24:18,999
just another version of the same?

454
00:24:18,999 --> 00:24:19,209
Yeah.

455
00:24:19,269 --> 00:24:23,097
I think, you know, Taylor- Is emerges.

456
00:24:23,367 --> 00:24:28,027
What he's able to do is he's able to
systematize what a lot of capitalists were

457
00:24:28,027 --> 00:24:30,037
doing in a much more piecemeal fashion.

458
00:24:30,107 --> 00:24:33,327
It's, again, this is one of those
things, it was only 100 years ago, but

459
00:24:33,327 --> 00:24:35,277
it still, like, seems so strange to us.

460
00:24:35,277 --> 00:24:42,197
But if you went to a factory in, in 1920,
the, the workers were what we would call

461
00:24:42,197 --> 00:24:45,257
skilled workers in that they weren't
doing a kind of re- repetitive thing.

462
00:24:45,257 --> 00:24:48,217
They were, you know, engaged in
a, a much more sort of holistic,

463
00:24:48,597 --> 00:24:50,187
um, process of production.

464
00:24:50,257 --> 00:24:54,217
But the people employing them and
the people managing them didn't

465
00:24:54,217 --> 00:24:56,017
really know what they were doing.

466
00:24:56,167 --> 00:24:59,847
So, you know, they're-- they can
look at statistics, and they can

467
00:24:59,847 --> 00:25:03,067
look at inputs and outputs, and
they can ask you to work harder.

468
00:25:03,197 --> 00:25:05,147
They don't actually know
how the stuff is made.

469
00:25:05,677 --> 00:25:06,407
The workers do.

470
00:25:06,507 --> 00:25:09,227
And that becomes a big flashpoint.

471
00:25:09,507 --> 00:25:14,467
What Taylor kind of realizes is, look, you
know, this is the source of worker power.

472
00:25:14,747 --> 00:25:19,107
They understand the production
process, and management does not.

473
00:25:19,377 --> 00:25:22,547
So we can tell them what to do or
what we don't want them to do, but

474
00:25:22,567 --> 00:25:26,017
we don't, ultimately don't actually
know how to put this tractor together.

475
00:25:26,217 --> 00:25:29,797
So we just have to let them do it, and if
they wanna work at a slower pace, there's

476
00:25:29,817 --> 00:25:33,945
not that much we can do to stop them He
says, "What we have to do is first we

477
00:25:33,955 --> 00:25:35,785
have to figure out what they know," right?

478
00:25:35,815 --> 00:25:38,465
We have to observe them So he
didn't have necessarily the, uh,

479
00:25:38,495 --> 00:25:39,885
he wasn't in league with them.

480
00:25:39,885 --> 00:25:41,935
He wasn't, he wasn't sympathetic to it.

481
00:25:41,935 --> 00:25:44,165
He was trying to figure out, as
it, how to get around this problem?

482
00:25:44,165 --> 00:25:44,425
Yeah.

483
00:25:44,425 --> 00:25:47,955
What's interesting about Tayl- He, he's
got an interesting biography, right?

484
00:25:47,955 --> 00:25:49,505
He comes from this elite background.

485
00:25:49,855 --> 00:25:52,675
He was kind of groomed, his, his,
his father's like an attorney.

486
00:25:52,675 --> 00:25:55,505
He was kind of groomed to go
to law school, but he, he, he

487
00:25:55,505 --> 00:25:56,575
can't do that for some reason.

488
00:25:56,585 --> 00:25:58,515
He has, he has just like a personality.

489
00:25:58,795 --> 00:26:02,285
I, I'm sure if he were living today,
we would have a better understanding

490
00:26:02,285 --> 00:26:04,275
of his diagnoses and things like that.

491
00:26:04,405 --> 00:26:06,735
He's definitely kind
of a, a eccentric guy.

492
00:26:06,735 --> 00:26:07,685
He can't ha- handle it.

493
00:26:07,875 --> 00:26:10,365
So what he does is he goes and
works in a factory as a machinist.

494
00:26:10,395 --> 00:26:13,895
And while he's there, you might
say, "Oh, wow, so he's joining

495
00:26:13,895 --> 00:26:16,935
the working class or something."
But he doesn't see it that way.

496
00:26:16,945 --> 00:26:19,225
He doesn't s- he doesn't
identify with those people.

497
00:26:19,225 --> 00:26:22,755
In fact, he really detests them because
he's around all these people and he's

498
00:26:22,755 --> 00:26:24,405
like, "They're not working very hard.

499
00:26:24,465 --> 00:26:27,045
They're, they're, you know,
they're slacking off all the time.

500
00:26:27,045 --> 00:26:31,165
They're not working at maximum capacity."
And he's like obsessed with this. He's

501
00:26:31,165 --> 00:26:34,825
obsessed with like… You can imagine
if maybe, maybe, maybe you even had

502
00:26:34,825 --> 00:26:38,025
coworkers like this, you know? It's
like, "What's your prob- You know,

503
00:26:38,025 --> 00:26:39,815
just let us, let us relax, you know?

504
00:26:39,815 --> 00:26:41,585
Just chill out." He can't chill out.

505
00:26:41,875 --> 00:26:46,335
So but, but this gives him a kind of
understanding of how the shop floor

506
00:26:46,335 --> 00:26:49,675
works and the, and the sen- and the power
that kind of courses through it that

507
00:26:49,855 --> 00:26:53,995
a lot of people who didn't have that
kind of on-the-ground experience lack.

508
00:26:54,195 --> 00:26:58,185
So he's able to say, "Okay, look, I
think what we should do, we need to

509
00:26:58,645 --> 00:27:03,095
make sure that we know the entirety of
the production process, and it would be

510
00:27:03,135 --> 00:27:08,225
really great if what we could do is take
that knowledge away from the workers.

511
00:27:08,435 --> 00:27:12,985
If they don't see how everything
fits together, then they're

512
00:27:12,985 --> 00:27:14,305
not focused on the big picture.

513
00:27:14,305 --> 00:27:16,865
They're not… They don't understand
how they relate to their coworkers.

514
00:27:16,885 --> 00:27:19,785
Give them basic repetitive tasks, right?

515
00:27:20,145 --> 00:27:23,895
Separate knowledge of the
production process from execution

516
00:27:24,255 --> 00:27:26,205
of the production process, right?

517
00:27:26,255 --> 00:27:29,215
And then if you get them to focus
on one particular task, it's so

518
00:27:29,215 --> 00:27:32,645
much easier to control them, so
much easier to speed them up.

519
00:27:32,925 --> 00:27:36,265
And eventually, you, if you specialize
them, it's gonna be easier to

520
00:27:36,265 --> 00:27:40,425
replace them." Now, he gets a lot of
credit for- And this is scientific

521
00:27:40,425 --> 00:27:42,635
management like- This is scientific
management … And so far you

522
00:27:42,635 --> 00:27:44,215
haven't mentioned a machine, right?

523
00:27:44,215 --> 00:27:46,311
So, so far this is- The, right?

524
00:27:46,311 --> 00:27:48,151
I mean, this is a theory of control.

525
00:27:48,361 --> 00:27:50,511
I haven't even heard of mechanization yet.

526
00:27:50,541 --> 00:27:56,081
And that's because it wasn't really
that big a part of Taylor specifically.

527
00:27:56,231 --> 00:27:58,371
He actually wasn't so scientific.

528
00:27:58,401 --> 00:28:02,171
It was people that came along later
that actually tried to make his,

529
00:28:02,201 --> 00:28:04,101
um, ideas more scientific, right?

530
00:28:04,131 --> 00:28:08,491
The Gilbreths, who actually really… You
know, they are the ones who did the, um,

531
00:28:09,081 --> 00:28:11,061
time motion studies and things like that.

532
00:28:11,071 --> 00:28:14,551
So like every motion would be timed,
and you could reorganize it that way.

533
00:28:15,071 --> 00:28:19,451
Uh, Taylor was much more kind
of improvisational, I would say.

534
00:28:19,471 --> 00:28:22,971
But always in mind was how do you
get these people to work harder?

535
00:28:23,131 --> 00:28:25,821
And a real sort of distaste for the work.

536
00:28:25,871 --> 00:28:29,331
So he's constantly comparing them to
animals, saying that they were stupid,

537
00:28:29,521 --> 00:28:31,351
you know, all these kinds of things.

538
00:28:31,821 --> 00:28:36,741
Uh, so it was really much more a
theory of power than a, a sort of a,

539
00:28:37,261 --> 00:28:41,061
a system, let alone, you know, a set
of technologies to be incorporated.

540
00:28:41,061 --> 00:28:43,661
That would come later, you
know, things like Henry Ford

541
00:28:43,661 --> 00:28:44,931
and the, and the assembly line.

542
00:28:45,071 --> 00:28:48,101
Now, it's very easy to look at the
assembly line and say, "Ah, that's the

543
00:28:48,101 --> 00:28:51,781
realization of Taylor's ideas," but
Taylor didn't come up with that, right?

544
00:28:51,781 --> 00:28:55,281
Taylor was really thinking
about social power in a way.

545
00:28:55,301 --> 00:28:58,991
And in some ways, I think that's what
makes him influential is that his

546
00:28:58,991 --> 00:29:03,471
ideas are-- continue to be relevant
in a variety of situations and

547
00:29:03,481 --> 00:29:06,931
also can be applied, uh, flexibly.

548
00:29:07,281 --> 00:29:09,501
You know, it's not wedded
to one particular set of

549
00:29:09,501 --> 00:29:11,321
technological solutions, right?

550
00:29:11,611 --> 00:29:16,831
But there's a kind of mania for
Taylorism and, uh, people start, you

551
00:29:16,831 --> 00:29:19,231
know, trying to Taylorize everything.

552
00:29:19,491 --> 00:29:21,681
So, um, and Taylor's not doing this.

553
00:29:21,691 --> 00:29:25,581
He, he, he has-- Maybe we could think
of it as a first-mover disadvantage.

554
00:29:25,581 --> 00:29:27,921
So he starts going into factories.

555
00:29:28,111 --> 00:29:31,041
He starts saying, you know, starts
putting some of his ideas into

556
00:29:31,041 --> 00:29:34,201
practice, making people work
harder, and surprise, surprise,

557
00:29:34,261 --> 00:29:35,581
there's a lot of pushback, right?

558
00:29:35,791 --> 00:29:41,191
In fact, he, he goes into, uh, an
arsenal in Massachusetts, and it just so

559
00:29:41,191 --> 00:29:47,931
happens that the, the, the union at this
factory has, uh, you know, the, some,

560
00:29:47,961 --> 00:29:52,051
some politicians on speed dial or, you
know, the nineteen twenty equivalent.

561
00:29:52,051 --> 00:29:52,281
Right.

562
00:29:52,691 --> 00:29:56,491
And so they say, "Look, this
guy's coming in and messing up our

563
00:29:56,491 --> 00:30:00,081
work, and we are providing, you
know, weapons for the military.

564
00:30:00,081 --> 00:30:02,411
So this is a national security
issue, and the government needs

565
00:30:02,411 --> 00:30:05,591
to get involved because, you
know, there's gonna be strikes.

566
00:30:05,591 --> 00:30:08,791
It's gonna be a, kind of an explosive
situation." You know, no pun intended.

567
00:30:08,961 --> 00:30:11,721
And so they, they bring Taylor
in front of Congress, and he has

568
00:30:11,721 --> 00:30:13,411
to testify about what he's doing.

569
00:30:13,441 --> 00:30:15,231
Congress is like, "You have to stop."

570
00:30:15,261 --> 00:30:18,721
And this whole experience is like
so deeply traumatizing to him

571
00:30:18,721 --> 00:30:23,091
that he basically quits what he's
doing and, and, and, and he dies.

572
00:30:23,121 --> 00:30:26,141
He's kind of like, you know,
shell-shocked, and he dies shortly after.

573
00:30:26,141 --> 00:30:30,869
I actually-- Later on, after I, I,
I wrote the book, I found out Dug a

574
00:30:30,879 --> 00:30:32,339
little bit more into his late life.

575
00:30:32,439 --> 00:30:33,989
He was redesigning golf clubs.

576
00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:34,119
Oh.

577
00:30:34,219 --> 00:30:37,309
'Cause he got really into golf, as
many people do when they retire.

578
00:30:37,679 --> 00:30:40,659
And, and he came up with a
golf club that had two handles.

579
00:30:40,669 --> 00:30:41,559
It was like a putter.

580
00:30:41,979 --> 00:30:45,599
Yeah, so he was, he was still thinking
about, like, efficiency and, and,

581
00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:49,089
and movement and stuff like this,
and, like, the last sort of tragedy

582
00:30:49,089 --> 00:30:52,929
of his life is, like, the PGA was
like, "This putter is not permitted.

583
00:30:52,929 --> 00:30:55,529
It can't… No two-handled
putters are allowed." So it's

584
00:30:55,529 --> 00:30:57,339
like one last sort of failure.

585
00:30:57,469 --> 00:31:01,799
But yeah, so, so, so he, you know, he's
kind of defeated, but, but it's people

586
00:31:01,799 --> 00:31:04,869
that come along later and that are
able to kind of make this stuff more

587
00:31:04,869 --> 00:31:07,589
scientific, um, apply it elsewhere, right?

588
00:31:07,589 --> 00:31:09,489
People were tailorizing education.

589
00:31:09,639 --> 00:31:13,289
There were, there was a… I found this
really weird book that was like how to

590
00:31:13,289 --> 00:31:18,509
use tailorization for the church to, like,
you know, make churches more efficient.

591
00:31:18,779 --> 00:31:21,259
There's a real mania for,
like, optimization, right?

592
00:31:21,259 --> 00:31:23,889
It's not so different than
some, maybe some things that

593
00:31:23,889 --> 00:31:25,059
we're seeing right now, right?

594
00:31:25,099 --> 00:31:28,719
Around, you know, how to use AI to
optimize processes and things like that.

595
00:31:28,779 --> 00:31:28,979
Yeah.

596
00:31:29,329 --> 00:31:33,409
And, and, and there, there are
many, many manifestations of that.

597
00:31:33,409 --> 00:31:37,349
And, and the Japanese Kanban system,
there's a lot of different… And now when

598
00:31:37,349 --> 00:31:40,469
you talk about some of those subsequent
movements, I'm just gonna pick a few from

599
00:31:40,469 --> 00:31:43,449
your book because we, we… you don't have
20 hours to do this interview with me.

600
00:31:43,619 --> 00:31:43,649
Sure.

601
00:31:43,649 --> 00:31:46,459
But also the Technocracy Movement too,
and I- Yeah … am kind of like just

602
00:31:46,629 --> 00:31:49,479
wanna hear, love to hear your thoughts
about them along this continuum.

603
00:31:49,489 --> 00:31:53,595
Again, like another intellectual I saw a
similarity there between the Taylorists

604
00:31:53,645 --> 00:31:54,845
and the technocracy, just in this sense.

605
00:31:54,845 --> 00:31:55,215
Yeah.

606
00:31:55,315 --> 00:31:58,835
You know, they were building
philosophical architecture, so to, so

607
00:31:58,835 --> 00:32:00,105
to speak, for the technology movement.

608
00:32:00,115 --> 00:32:00,135
Yeah.

609
00:32:00,145 --> 00:32:03,035
It's a, it's a very weird movement.

610
00:32:03,115 --> 00:32:08,655
This-- Another thing I found out later is
that Elon Musk's, I think his grandfather,

611
00:32:08,675 --> 00:32:10,665
was a huge part of this movement.

612
00:32:11,355 --> 00:32:14,625
And they're, they, you know, some
of, you know, w- they weren't really

613
00:32:14,645 --> 00:32:17,325
anti-technology, they weren't really
pro-technology, but they, they

614
00:32:17,325 --> 00:32:21,935
had this kind of idea that, uh,
technology was changing the world.

615
00:32:22,015 --> 00:32:25,265
And there, there was gonna be
a kind of, um… It was gonna

616
00:32:25,295 --> 00:32:26,945
automate people out of jobs, right?

617
00:32:26,955 --> 00:32:29,745
And there was gonna be some sort
of massive social crisis, and

618
00:32:30,005 --> 00:32:31,355
had to do something about it.

619
00:32:31,375 --> 00:32:35,345
And they had magazines, they had,
um, there's a… If you go on YouTube

620
00:32:35,345 --> 00:32:39,445
and look, they had, like, really
weird, like, uh, little film projects

621
00:32:39,445 --> 00:32:42,145
where they'd all dress in identically
and, like, drive cars around.

622
00:32:42,155 --> 00:32:44,325
I don't… really don't
understand what they were doing.

623
00:32:44,535 --> 00:32:45,815
Very bizarre.

624
00:32:45,885 --> 00:32:50,405
But they, they were kind of the first
people that sort of, um, looked at

625
00:32:50,845 --> 00:32:54,925
trends in automation and came up with
this kind of apocalyptic imaginary,

626
00:32:54,955 --> 00:32:56,745
and we have to do something, right?

627
00:32:56,895 --> 00:32:59,575
And so various people got
interested in that idea.

628
00:32:59,585 --> 00:33:03,145
Sometimes it would be kind of
policymakers and things like that.

629
00:33:03,315 --> 00:33:06,075
But, uh, but actually, uh,
it would… Sometimes it was,

630
00:33:06,125 --> 00:33:07,555
uh, like organizers, right?

631
00:33:07,565 --> 00:33:11,535
So the, um, Industrial Workers of the
World, which is like a kind of very

632
00:33:11,535 --> 00:33:16,465
Marxist influenced, anarcho-syndicalist
workers movement that's, you know, very

633
00:33:16,505 --> 00:33:19,975
adamantly, you know, anti-political party.

634
00:33:19,975 --> 00:33:23,605
You know, it's all about organizing
the worker kinda, kind of perspective.

635
00:33:23,795 --> 00:33:27,385
But they're like, "Oh, wow, this is
really… Okay, we should learn about

636
00:33:27,385 --> 00:33:31,095
this stuff." And they kind of come, they
s- they start learning about technocracy

637
00:33:31,095 --> 00:33:33,435
and investigating this stuff, and
they're like, they ultimately come to

638
00:33:33,435 --> 00:33:38,065
this conclusion, which is the, the, the,
you know, whether this happens or not,

639
00:33:38,065 --> 00:33:40,035
there's no theory of social change here.

640
00:33:40,075 --> 00:33:43,835
You know, there's no theory about
how technology impacts, you know, the

641
00:33:43,835 --> 00:33:46,915
actual thing that we're interested
in, which is, you know, the, the

642
00:33:46,915 --> 00:33:48,475
class struggle and how that develops.

643
00:33:48,475 --> 00:33:51,545
This is people coming up with
weird schemes and, and kind of

644
00:33:51,545 --> 00:33:53,455
science fiction scenarios, right?

645
00:33:53,495 --> 00:33:56,805
That, uh, that… And, and
there's not a real politics here.

646
00:33:56,805 --> 00:33:59,935
And I think that, to me, I was really
interesting to read about that,

647
00:33:59,935 --> 00:34:03,935
'cause that's another thing that I
felt was so resonant, um, with, with

648
00:34:04,105 --> 00:34:05,455
things that we think about today.

649
00:34:05,465 --> 00:34:08,165
You know, people that think about
fully automated futures but don't

650
00:34:08,175 --> 00:34:12,395
think about, okay, well, or, or, you
know, a society beyond work, you know.

651
00:34:12,645 --> 00:34:15,105
People were talking about that kind
of died down, and now it's coming back

652
00:34:15,115 --> 00:34:18,855
with, with, uh, with the successes,
so to speak, of generative AI.

653
00:34:18,855 --> 00:34:24,257
Um- Um, and, and so there was a
kind of flaw there and, and, and it

654
00:34:24,257 --> 00:34:26,357
never really, really went anywhere.

655
00:34:26,357 --> 00:34:29,407
And, and obviously there were, there was
all sorts of weirdos connected to it.

656
00:34:29,797 --> 00:34:33,927
Um, yeah, I don't know if that was… If,
if there was a particular point you wanted

657
00:34:33,927 --> 00:34:37,037
to make about technocracy, 'cause for me
it's- Sure … I find it very perplexing.

658
00:34:37,037 --> 00:34:37,487
Yeah, no.

659
00:34:37,497 --> 00:34:40,117
Well, one of the points that, one
of the points, fantastic points that

660
00:34:40,117 --> 00:34:43,177
you made in the book that I thought
was really why, why I brought it up

661
00:34:43,177 --> 00:34:47,667
and why I connected was you, you, you
again kind of just showed that they,

662
00:34:47,927 --> 00:34:50,497
they were starting, they were starting
point of that this is inevitable.

663
00:34:50,647 --> 00:34:51,077
Hmm.

664
00:34:51,077 --> 00:34:51,142
Yeah.

665
00:34:51,142 --> 00:34:53,627
Like that this mechanization was
inevitable, so it sounded… It reminded

666
00:34:53,627 --> 00:34:56,937
me of Hobbes Warren's, you know,
questioning that- Right … the fact

667
00:34:56,937 --> 00:34:59,797
that people were saying that it was
inevitable, and then also it reminded

668
00:34:59,797 --> 00:35:03,327
me of a, of a, a very current, like
an Andrew Yang kind of thing, 'cause

669
00:35:03,327 --> 00:35:03,907
they were talking about- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

670
00:35:03,907 --> 00:35:07,007
Okay, so they were not trying to figure
out how to make the life better for

671
00:35:07,007 --> 00:35:09,557
the workers as, as per your book,
but more like how to figure out how

672
00:35:09,557 --> 00:35:12,517
to compensate so that you didn't
have massive starvation or poverty.

673
00:35:12,517 --> 00:35:12,967
Right, right.

674
00:35:12,967 --> 00:35:16,487
It, it was almost like, okay, well,
the horse is out of the barn, uh,

675
00:35:16,547 --> 00:35:18,407
this is how we have to move forward,
which I thought was- Yeah, yeah

676
00:35:18,417 --> 00:35:18,947
very interesting.

677
00:35:18,947 --> 00:35:24,057
I think actually Andrew Yang is like
a great… I find him like so… I,

678
00:35:24,067 --> 00:35:27,667
it just as soon as he opens his mouth,
it's… But anyway, uh, yeah, he's- No,

679
00:35:27,697 --> 00:35:32,627
please … he's definitely echoes kind
of this like naive and incoherent kind

680
00:35:32,627 --> 00:35:36,777
of understanding of technology that
that technocracy movement is a part of.

681
00:35:37,247 --> 00:35:39,737
Yeah, but definitely, you know,
this is one of the fun things

682
00:35:39,737 --> 00:35:41,267
when you start exploring history.

683
00:35:41,267 --> 00:35:46,027
There's all sorts of… You, you realize
everything is much stranger than, than a,

684
00:35:46,027 --> 00:35:50,757
than a simple narrative can, can provide,
and you have all these odd examples of

685
00:35:50,757 --> 00:35:54,987
things that happened and, um, and, and
that's, yeah, that's really one of the,

686
00:35:55,087 --> 00:35:59,617
the, the kind of exciting- And, and
again, to, you know, I've brought this

687
00:35:59,617 --> 00:36:01,937
up before, this is like, this is one of
the things that was great about your book

688
00:36:02,027 --> 00:36:06,137
because these examples that you chose,
I picked them out because I'm like the,

689
00:36:06,147 --> 00:36:07,867
the juxtaposition of these ideas- Yeah

690
00:36:07,937 --> 00:36:12,195
next to them without Sewing them
together per se, they sewed themselves

691
00:36:12,195 --> 00:36:13,465
together was, was incredible.

692
00:36:13,625 --> 00:36:13,905
Oh, well, please.

693
00:36:13,955 --> 00:36:16,035
And no, th- very, very
much, I really enjoyed it.

694
00:36:16,065 --> 00:36:18,255
And I was gonna say one, one more
thing I wanna talk about, and then I'd

695
00:36:18,255 --> 00:36:21,825
actually like to finish when we talk
about and go to AI 'cause we've- Okay

696
00:36:22,295 --> 00:36:25,015
we… You've wanted to get there,
and I apologize if I- No, no.

697
00:36:25,045 --> 00:36:26,785
It's okay … because I think
it's, 'cause I think this, this

698
00:36:26,785 --> 00:36:29,155
is a really foundational work-
Mm-hmm … that you provided here

699
00:36:29,155 --> 00:36:30,105
and, and really helped me understand.

700
00:36:30,105 --> 00:36:33,325
Talk about the cybernetic movement,
and as we can talk a little bit about

701
00:36:33,325 --> 00:36:36,235
Norbert Wiener, like, kind of like what
his movement represented and kinda- Yeah

702
00:36:36,235 --> 00:36:37,555
where he ended at the end of this.

703
00:36:37,715 --> 00:36:37,955
Yeah.

704
00:36:37,955 --> 00:36:40,085
And then I think, I think 'cause I
think it's an interesting transition

705
00:36:40,115 --> 00:36:41,905
to the modern era in that sense.

706
00:36:41,915 --> 00:36:42,215
Right.

707
00:36:42,225 --> 00:36:44,875
So I mean, you know, cybernetics,
a lot of people are really

708
00:36:44,875 --> 00:36:45,705
interested in this, right?

709
00:36:45,705 --> 00:36:48,635
This kind of foundation
of, of computation, right?

710
00:36:48,705 --> 00:36:54,175
And, and, and o- the idea of automation
is sort of fundamental to it, right?

711
00:36:54,435 --> 00:36:58,715
The idea in cybernetics is that you can
create a kind of a feedback mechanism

712
00:36:58,845 --> 00:37:02,455
so that when you have a sort of process
going, you know, the problem is, oh, what

713
00:37:02,465 --> 00:37:06,325
happens, you know, there, there's some
sort of entropy or noise introduced, and

714
00:37:06,325 --> 00:37:08,235
then the process kind of deteriorates.

715
00:37:08,285 --> 00:37:10,595
But if you have some sort of
feedback mechanism that's kind of

716
00:37:10,595 --> 00:37:15,295
self-correcting, then the, the process
can go on in perpetuity, right?

717
00:37:15,885 --> 00:37:20,945
Um, and, and this is actually an approach
that was developed in World War II.

718
00:37:20,955 --> 00:37:24,265
They were trying to get airplane guns
that would be able to shoot without

719
00:37:24,265 --> 00:37:25,765
shooting the propeller of the plane.

720
00:37:26,105 --> 00:37:28,755
So they had to kind of develop
these mechanisms that would

721
00:37:28,835 --> 00:37:30,505
kind of time it properly, right?

722
00:37:30,855 --> 00:37:34,575
Um, so there's an argument by a famous
historian of science who says that

723
00:37:34,575 --> 00:37:38,035
this, the idea of cybernetics is
you're trying to shoot down something.

724
00:37:38,115 --> 00:37:41,435
There's an enemy that you're
trying to anticipate, right?

725
00:37:41,825 --> 00:37:46,755
Um, and so some people have made, um,
you know, like society is a cybernetic

726
00:37:46,765 --> 00:37:52,415
organism and the, the, the rebellions are
the kind of feedback, uh, uh, the noise

727
00:37:52,415 --> 00:37:54,325
that the feedback mechanisms are created.

728
00:37:54,365 --> 00:37:57,531
That stuff's sometimes kind of
interesting, but not Really what,

729
00:37:57,561 --> 00:38:00,631
where, where I wanted to go in,
in understanding cybernetics.

730
00:38:00,631 --> 00:38:04,371
I think one thing that certain…
What Norbert Wiener realizes is these

731
00:38:04,401 --> 00:38:08,711
kinds of technologies or processes,
if they can be developed, right?

732
00:38:08,721 --> 00:38:11,431
'Cause cybernetics is a very
weird sort of… It's not

733
00:38:11,431 --> 00:38:12,891
really a scientific discipline.

734
00:38:12,901 --> 00:38:14,601
It's not really a set of technologies.

735
00:38:15,031 --> 00:38:19,431
It's kind of a overall perspective
and, and kind of like Taylorism,

736
00:38:19,761 --> 00:38:22,681
it- there's a mania there
where people see it everywhere.

737
00:38:22,691 --> 00:38:22,721
Right.

738
00:38:22,721 --> 00:38:22,866
Right.

739
00:38:22,866 --> 00:38:23,981
People see it in nature.

740
00:38:24,211 --> 00:38:27,261
You know, even now we talk about feedback
mechanisms and things like that, right?

741
00:38:27,261 --> 00:38:31,371
It's just so deeply influential
on, like, how people, um, sort

742
00:38:31,371 --> 00:38:32,711
of perceive the world, right?

743
00:38:32,841 --> 00:38:37,361
But Wiener is thinking about it in terms
of, okay, you can, you know, really

744
00:38:37,411 --> 00:38:42,951
automate machines to a much higher degree
than, than you were able to before.

745
00:38:43,161 --> 00:38:47,711
And he's actually kind of a
left-leaning guy personally.

746
00:38:47,861 --> 00:38:50,891
A lot of the people he was working
with at Rand and, and doing

747
00:38:50,891 --> 00:38:52,641
cybernetics research with are not.

748
00:38:52,761 --> 00:38:53,051
Mm-hmm.

749
00:38:53,051 --> 00:38:55,311
Uh, they're, they're on the
other end of the spectrum.

750
00:38:55,661 --> 00:38:59,761
So he's like, "Okay, this is a big
deal, and potentially, you know, a

751
00:38:59,761 --> 00:39:02,191
problem for, for workers," right?

752
00:39:02,391 --> 00:39:07,571
And so he, he wants to meet with,
um, Walter Reuther, the, the head

753
00:39:07,571 --> 00:39:11,011
of the UAW, the largest, most
powerful trade union at the time.

754
00:39:11,471 --> 00:39:14,691
And he's like, "Look, like they're
gonna try… They're gonna automate

755
00:39:14,731 --> 00:39:18,571
these factories, and they're gonna
undermine, uh, your whole movement,

756
00:39:18,571 --> 00:39:22,671
and you really need to kind of get
ready for, for, for this because

757
00:39:22,681 --> 00:39:23,891
it's gonna be a problem for you."

758
00:39:24,311 --> 00:39:27,771
Um, and I thought that was so interesting
that, you know, this foundational

759
00:39:27,781 --> 00:39:31,591
figure of cybernetics, you know,
the, the, you know, computation,

760
00:39:32,401 --> 00:39:36,051
you know, digital automation, all of
that kind of stuff, algorithms, all

761
00:39:36,051 --> 00:39:39,331
of that, immediately is like, "This
is a problem for workers," right?

762
00:39:39,741 --> 00:39:41,731
Uh, and reaches out to a trade union.

763
00:39:42,031 --> 00:39:44,501
And they try to… They, they write
some letters back and forth and,

764
00:39:44,511 --> 00:39:46,891
and they try to have a meeting,
and it doesn't really work out.

765
00:39:46,911 --> 00:39:51,391
And Norbert Wiener has got like a, a
sort of mental and, and other health

766
00:39:51,391 --> 00:39:52,781
problems at that point as well.

767
00:39:52,811 --> 00:39:55,901
So, so they-- it's kind of a
misconnection in history, right?

768
00:39:56,481 --> 00:39:59,771
And it's also not so clear that, that
Reuther would've said, "Oh, okay,

769
00:39:59,771 --> 00:40:01,121
we have to, you know, do something."

770
00:40:01,291 --> 00:40:05,971
There's a little bit of movement
subsequently where people are talking

771
00:40:05,971 --> 00:40:10,411
about a sort of, uh, a triple crisis of
where they're, they're sort of thinking

772
00:40:10,411 --> 00:40:14,921
about the other things that are happening
kind of in 1950s and 1960s in the US

773
00:40:14,921 --> 00:40:17,771
are saying, "Okay, well, we have all
the, the civil rights movement," right?

774
00:40:17,771 --> 00:40:19,141
And, you know, what are we gonna do?

775
00:40:19,151 --> 00:40:23,891
How are we gonna-- how's the country
gonna change to, to, to accommodate that?

776
00:40:25,121 --> 00:40:30,561
And, um, and, and, and also how is
that going to look if all of a sudden

777
00:40:30,581 --> 00:40:32,991
industrial employment plummets, right?

778
00:40:33,031 --> 00:40:35,621
Even, you know, Martin Luther
King and Malcolm X are also

779
00:40:35,651 --> 00:40:36,621
talking about that stuff.

780
00:40:36,631 --> 00:40:39,831
They're paying attention to what they're
calling cyber nation at the time and

781
00:40:39,831 --> 00:40:44,491
trying to say, "Okay, maybe we need
to, you know, uh, adapt our political

782
00:40:44,491 --> 00:40:46,991
strategies, uh, to thinking about that."

783
00:40:47,181 --> 00:40:50,131
And that was so interesting for
me to, to, to find out that stuff

784
00:40:50,141 --> 00:40:54,181
because I never knew that, you know,
these are-- like automation was a

785
00:40:54,181 --> 00:40:58,901
political issue for, you know, some
of the main developers of these ideas.

786
00:40:58,911 --> 00:41:01,871
It was something that major union
figures were talking about, that civil

787
00:41:01,871 --> 00:41:03,211
rights leaders were talking about.

788
00:41:03,231 --> 00:41:06,511
That history was completely opaque
to me when I started this project.

789
00:41:06,511 --> 00:41:09,491
So it was so interesting to me that,
that they were like, "Wow, this is

790
00:41:09,491 --> 00:41:14,281
gonna be, you know, a real problem.
Um, this is gonna affect the success

791
00:41:14,281 --> 00:41:18,891
of the civil rights movement. If
there's no jobs to, to, to give to

792
00:41:18,901 --> 00:41:22,301
people anymore, then we, we won't
solve a lot of these problems," right?

793
00:41:22,331 --> 00:41:25,511
So but yeah, that, that Norbert
Wiener is like, you know… It's,

794
00:41:25,521 --> 00:41:26,971
it's-- We have these today, right?

795
00:41:26,971 --> 00:41:30,251
We have people who are… You
know, I've talked to them, right?

796
00:41:30,271 --> 00:41:33,531
The, the-- One of the things that's
very thrilling about the book, that

797
00:41:33,531 --> 00:41:36,791
it's not just other academics reading
it, but, but it's even people who

798
00:41:36,791 --> 00:41:39,491
work in technology that are reading it
and being like, "Oh, wow, there's…

799
00:41:39,871 --> 00:41:43,241
You know, this is resonating with some
misgivings I have about, you know,

800
00:41:43,241 --> 00:41:46,321
the, the things that are happening
in, in, in my neck of the woods that,

801
00:41:46,711 --> 00:41:50,361
that they're concerned that, you know,
they're working on or their other

802
00:41:50,361 --> 00:41:53,591
technologies are being developed that
are gonna have really bad social effects.

803
00:41:53,631 --> 00:41:55,051
Um, and, and what should
you do about that?"

804
00:41:55,051 --> 00:41:55,261
Yeah.

805
00:41:55,261 --> 00:41:56,371
And I'd like to press on that too.

806
00:41:56,371 --> 00:42:00,853
And you raised I mean, you know, very
lightly you, you had also raised, 'cause

807
00:42:00,853 --> 00:42:04,293
I was gonna say, you know, you took the
w- again, the back to this connective

808
00:42:04,353 --> 00:42:07,873
tissue that you had put together here
for the Luddites without actually

809
00:42:08,173 --> 00:42:09,713
forcing us to understand that tissue.

810
00:42:09,713 --> 00:42:12,183
But you talked about the student
movements in the '60s- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

811
00:42:12,183 --> 00:42:14,783
and how people were … And the
connection that I made reading

812
00:42:14,783 --> 00:42:18,633
that book, reading that part of the
book, was that so now people, now we

813
00:42:18,633 --> 00:42:19,983
have, they're not workers anymore.

814
00:42:19,993 --> 00:42:21,793
Now they're university
professors and university

815
00:42:21,793 --> 00:42:23,123
students, and they're engineers.

816
00:42:23,133 --> 00:42:23,163
Mm-hmm.

817
00:42:23,373 --> 00:42:24,603
So they're very much different.

818
00:42:24,603 --> 00:42:26,623
Their issues are not about labor, right?

819
00:42:26,623 --> 00:42:26,653
Yeah.

820
00:42:26,653 --> 00:42:27,643
You know, per the book.

821
00:42:27,803 --> 00:42:29,923
But the connective tissue I saw
was that, but they're worried

822
00:42:29,923 --> 00:42:31,303
about the outcomes of this, right?

823
00:42:31,453 --> 00:42:31,753
Yeah.

824
00:42:31,753 --> 00:42:34,423
You, you were saying they were concerned
with the, the, the war machine.

825
00:42:34,473 --> 00:42:34,493
Yeah.

826
00:42:34,493 --> 00:42:37,033
So- And I think, don't, I thought
that was a very interesting kind

827
00:42:37,033 --> 00:42:39,533
of like juxtaposition to, to
see those two things together.

828
00:42:39,543 --> 00:42:42,593
You know, we, we lived through, you
and I, I would say my students, um-

829
00:42:42,903 --> 00:42:46,733
Me, you, so yeah … you know, where
computers felt, you know, it was

830
00:42:46,743 --> 00:42:50,523
plausible that they were a mechanism
of individual empowerment, right?

831
00:42:50,563 --> 00:42:53,873
Because we had personal computers, and
they let us do so many cool things.

832
00:42:54,323 --> 00:42:58,293
Uh, but in the '60s there were no pers-
computers were massive machines, and they

833
00:42:58,293 --> 00:42:59,463
were connected to the military, right?

834
00:43:00,013 --> 00:43:00,223
Interesting, right.

835
00:43:00,243 --> 00:43:03,203
And they were doing, they were
doing data processing for,

836
00:43:03,583 --> 00:43:05,673
for large institutions, right?

837
00:43:05,783 --> 00:43:09,963
And so people, you know, didn't perceive
them as a form of empowerment, but

838
00:43:09,963 --> 00:43:14,493
a, but a, but a, but a form of being
governed and managed, quantified.

839
00:43:14,843 --> 00:43:19,043
Uh, and you know, quite literally,
they were being used to direct

840
00:43:19,113 --> 00:43:20,503
aspects of the Vietnam War.

841
00:43:20,553 --> 00:43:25,853
And so, you know, absolutely part of this
war machine that people were against.

842
00:43:25,863 --> 00:43:28,403
So saw, they saw computers
in a very different way.

843
00:43:28,403 --> 00:43:31,823
It wasn't until, you know, the '80s
and you had Apple and their great

844
00:43:31,853 --> 00:43:36,641
advertising and all of that, you know,
that, that you viewed computers not as

845
00:43:36,651 --> 00:43:40,751
something that was impacting you, but
as a, as a tool that you could use.

846
00:43:40,931 --> 00:43:44,201
Now I think we live in a situation
where we're so saturated by comp--

847
00:43:44,361 --> 00:43:48,741
where our computer isn't just a
portal to a data server s- you know,

848
00:43:48,751 --> 00:43:52,991
a massive data farm somewhere and a
massive platform that, um, you know,

849
00:43:52,991 --> 00:43:54,861
works in ways that we can't understand.

850
00:43:54,901 --> 00:43:58,561
Now I think w- w- the pendulum has
kind of swung back and co- computers

851
00:43:58,561 --> 00:44:01,191
are not the source of individual
empowerment in the same way.

852
00:44:01,201 --> 00:44:04,851
They're a kind of situation that
we have to deal with that is…

853
00:44:05,211 --> 00:44:09,611
And some of those older concerns
become a lot easier to see, right?

854
00:44:09,851 --> 00:44:13,241
This is-- My students are constant--
They, you know, they're, they're here to

855
00:44:13,241 --> 00:44:17,521
major in new media studies, to study the
internet and digital culture and things

856
00:44:17,521 --> 00:44:21,641
like that, and they're all convinced
that they are y- they've been deeply

857
00:44:21,641 --> 00:44:27,201
harmed by, you know, their phones,
by social media, by, uh, big tech.

858
00:44:27,221 --> 00:44:30,221
You know, they have all sorts
of, you know, a lot of times

859
00:44:30,231 --> 00:44:31,551
not well articulated, right?

860
00:44:31,551 --> 00:44:33,341
They're, they're young and
they're still figuring things out.

861
00:44:33,351 --> 00:44:36,421
They're here to learn those things,
but they already kind of feel that way.

862
00:44:36,431 --> 00:44:40,421
For me, I remember like the, my
experiences with computers when

863
00:44:40,421 --> 00:44:44,841
I was their age or even younger
was like, "This is amazing."

864
00:44:44,851 --> 00:44:48,671
You know, I'd, um, the internet when
I first got it was like, "Oh wow, I

865
00:44:48,671 --> 00:44:52,521
can really," you know, I, I, I was,
you know, totally believing the hype.

866
00:44:52,751 --> 00:44:54,511
It was like, "Oh,
expanding my world," right?

867
00:44:54,821 --> 00:44:56,541
But, uh, and it does, right?

868
00:44:56,561 --> 00:45:01,601
But, but, um, but it makes it more
powerful ideologically to see that

869
00:45:01,921 --> 00:45:05,931
digi-- okay, digital technology's always
this tool that empowers us potentially,

870
00:45:05,951 --> 00:45:10,221
rather than these older concerns about,
uh, computers having this kind of

871
00:45:10,241 --> 00:45:15,781
larger structuring effect on society and
working in unjust and opaque ways, right?

872
00:45:16,041 --> 00:45:19,631
That w- and but also ways that
can be potentially resisted